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How a BJT Transistor works (base current version)

How a BJT Transistor works (base current version)

Ratch

Mar 10, 2013
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View attachment 19297 View attachment 19295 View attachment 19294 View attachment 19292 View attachment 19293 Another set of sims, these are very helpful. The circuit is a discreet linear voltage regulator I've been using a while. I've designed this low dropout regulator into trucks, busses, cars, and airplanes. It provides protection against over-voltage transients like load dump, inductive switching, lightning strokes etc. It uses 3 active devices, 2 bjt parts, and one FET. They all operate in the active region as amplifiers.

Please note that the pnp bjt exhibits a collector current that closely tracks the emitter current, ref file name "ovp0 q2 vbe-ie-ic zoom.jpg". But vbe continues to settle long after ie/ic settle. It is too obvious that ic is tracking ie, with vbe exerting virtually no influence on ic.

Now we look at the FET, file name "ovp0 q3 vgs-ig-id zoom.jpg". This is interesting. As expected, gate current ig leads gate-source voltage vgs by a lot. No surprise as a FET is almost a pure capacitance, opposed to a bjt where much of the current is conducted, only a fraction displacement to charge diffusion capacitance. But look at id, the drain current. Drain current lags gate current and closely tracks vgs, the gate-source voltage. Id vs. Vgs is closely correlated. Ig is needed to charge up Vgs, but Id does not respond until Vgs is charged. Id is controlled not by Ig, but by Vgs.

In the pnp bjt, as soon as Ie changes, Ic responds immediately, Vbe lagging. After Ie reaches plateau, Ic also plateaus and both settle in unison. But Vbe continues to change before settling at its new plateau.

This really demonstrates the current controlled nature of bjt devices, and the voltage controlled nature of FET devices. Peace to all.

Claude

Again you exhibit circuits with lots of energy storage elements and attempt to show that devices exhibit this behavior. Wrong! A device has to be analyzed by itself, not in a circuit.

Ratch
 

Ratch

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Regarding current sources, there seems to be some weird stuff being claimed. A current source is just that. A source that outputs whatever voltage is needed to maintain constant current in the face of varying impedances. Current sources are just as "real" as voltage sources. Take a bicycle generator. It can function as either, CVS or CCS. An ideal source of either type is impossible to make, but a non-ideal CCS can be made as easily as a non-ideal CVS.

A bike gen can be regulated by the pedaler for CVS or CCS. For CCS, if the handle bars are equipped with ammeter, and field current adjustment (wound rotor field), maintaining CCS function is as follows. Biker pedals until current on ammeter reads target value. Field current can be adjusted so that biker is producing a speed and torque that is comfortable. Say, the target is 1.0 amp, and the load is 10 ohm. Field current is adjusted so that a comfortable pedaling speed gives 1.0 amp. But then load changes from 10 to 20 ohm. To maintain 1.0 amp, power must double. If biker maintains torque, then field current must double. Or biker can maintain field current and maintain torque while doubling speed (rpm). But either approach results in constant current.

I know what critics are thinking - Claude all you describe is a "voltage" generator that allows adjustable voltage. But as we will see, a CVS is analogous to the CCS. To maintain a constant 10 volts, the biker pedals and observes a volt meter. With a 10 ohm load, the field current is adjusted for comfortable pedal speed/torque. Now drop the load to 5 ohms, and maintain 10 volts. What must be done? Increase field current or pedal speed or both. Torque will increase due to increased current. In the CCS case, load changing from 10 to 20 ohms dictates increased voltage.

The CVS generator at power plants operates much like this bike example. Generators do not naturally output constant voltage nor constant current. The stator inductance is very large. An ideal CVS has zero R, and most important zero L, or zero XL. As frequency increases, this is hard to achieve. In open circuit, no load condition, a CVS shaft speed and field current are adjusted for 10 volts. Assume the generator full power is 100 watt, so that 1.0 ohm is full load at 10 volts.

The inductive reactance for a typical generator, known as synchronous reactance, is between 0.50 and 2.50 ohms reactive (j0.50 to j2.50 ohm). When open, V = 10V, and the emf generated is 10V. Synchronous reactance XS is 1.50 ohm, typical. But fully load the output with 1.0 ohm resistive. The terminal voltage will drop like a rock. The new voltage at the terminals is 10V(1/(1.0 + j1.50)) = 5.547 volts. That is a 45% drop! To restore the 10 volts, we must increase field current and/or pedal with more torque.

By increasing torque we increased current. By increasing field current we compensated for the voltage dropped across XS. Generators must be controlled to produce constant voltage, it's not natural. The power company is so good at it, we don't see the effort it takes. Our wall outlet is 120 volts, 60 Hz, and stays that way whether we draw 1.0 milliamp, or 20 amps. It is very easy to slip into the heretical mindset that V causes I, or V is the independent variable.

A CCS is much like a CVS. Constant current from a generator is not natural, it is contrived and artificial, just like CVS. The bike generator has a 1.5 ohm reactance. Per Thevenin/Norton, we have a voltage source in series with 1.5 ohm, or a current source in parallel with 1.5 ohm. Full load is 1.0 ohm. The truth is, the generator makes a lousy CVS, and a lousy CCS. For load normalized to 1.0 ohm, a "good" CCS should have over 100 ohms of shunt impedance. That way a 1.0 ohm load gets almost the entire generator current, and little regulation if any would be needed. Likewise a CVS that is "good, would possess less than 0.010 ohms of series resistance, assuring that little voltage drops in the resistance, almost all reaches load.

But, that doesn't happen, so we artificially manipulate our filed current, speed and torque to maintain either CC or CV. Both are attainable to an extent, but neither ideally. Peace to all.

Claude

What weird stuff is being claimed? How does a discussion of a CVS and CCS uphold your argument that a BJT can be thought6 of as a current controlled device?

Ratch
 

Ratch

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One more issue is the inductor. An inductor is NOT a high value voltage source plus a resistor of high value. That is a heresy. When an inductor is energized, then placed across a device, de-energizing into said device, the inductor transfers energy. Let's use electrons as the carriers. Electrons in the conduction band can stay there until knocked down to valence. When an inductor sources current, the conduction electrons need no E field to stay in conduction. But any resistance in the path results in electrons in conduction colliding with lattice ions. This can and does result in enrgy transfer where electrons drop in energy state from conduction down to valence. Hence these electrons are no longer conducting. Energy conservation occurs, a photon is emitted, and we feel the heat radiated from a resistor with current. THe inductor across the dioe in my sims, has current, and sources said current to diode. No E field is driving them, they are already in the highest state, the conduction level. Once they enter the diode, transit through n & p regions, some collide, dropping down to valence, giving off photons. Then they reach the junction, cross and recombine, ionizing and increasing depletion zone E field. The line integral of E field is voltage. The voltage Vd has increased as a result of inductors electrons in conduction band transiting through p & n, then crossing junction, and increasing depletion zone charge build up.

Inductor current produced a change in diode forward voltage drop, period. There is no magic large resistor in series with a large voltage source. If there was, more power would be dissipated. Inductors with current made from superconductors have been retaining their current for years with 0 loss. A voltage source plus resistor can't do that. The junction voltage Vd is clearly determined by the current. No other explanation makes sense. Sims are not infallible. But I've designed hundreds of power supplies, motor drivers, LED drivers, etc. I've seen on a scope in the lab waveforms from inductive energy transfer. Same result all the time. These sims affirm what I've witnessed in the lab. Anybody can set up these circuits and observe for themselves. Peace.

Claude

Claude,

Did I ever say that an inductor included a resistor? What does a discussion of how a inductor works in a circuit have to do with a BJT being anything other than a voltage controlled current source? You should identify who said otherwise, so as to save the readers the work of searching this rather long thread. Inquiring minds want to know.

Ratch
 

cabraham

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Claude,

Did I ever say that an inductor included a resistor? What does a discussion of how a inductor works in a circuit have to do with a BJT being anything other than a voltage controlled current source? You should identify who said otherwise, so as to save the readers the work of searching this rather long thread. Inquiring minds want to know.

Ratch
The inductor is the energy source. It is connected directly across the diode. No resistors in between, nor other elements. This diode is as "in the raw" as you can ask for. The current in the diode is exactly determined by the inductor current the moment the switch engaged. The voltage follows the current. Here it is clear that the diode junction voltage is determined by its current. It is that clear.
 
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cabraham

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Again you exhibit circuits with lots of energy storage elements and attempt to show that devices exhibit this behavior. Wrong! A device has to be analyzed by itself, not in a circuit.

Ratch
How do you analyze a device all by itself? One has to energize it. The inductor in my sim did just that. Energy in the inductor is transferred to p-n junction diode w/o elements in between. The results are the same.

Also, you never answered this question Ratch. The FET is not by itself, as you say it is surrounded by lots of energy storage elements. Yet it is clear in the plot that drain current Id is clearly following/tracking gate-source voltage Vgs, not gate current Ig. Although Ig leads Vgs in time, Id follows Vgs very accurately. The plots show the FET as being voltage controlled, because that is what a FET is, voltage controlled.

If a bjt is also VC, why don't the plots indicate such? The external R. C, and diode elements around the FET and bjt parts do not change internal physics, you agree to that. But how do they "obfuscate" (your words) what is truly happening inside the device?

The bjt inserted in a network exhibits current controlled behavior. A raw diode sans R,C, or other parts, straight across an inductor shows I controlling V. I can re-run the inductor plot w/ a bjt instead of a diode. That way energy transfers straight from inductor to bjt b-e junction w/o parts in the way. It won't change anything, but tonight I will do that and post. BR.

Claude
 

cabraham

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Again you exhibit circuits with lots of energy storage elements and attempt to show that devices exhibit this behavior. Wrong! A device has to be analyzed by itself, not in a circuit.

Ratch
Says who? I've never seen a product, piece of lab equipment, that consisted of a lone bjt w/o surrounding parts. The bjt is exclusively used by being surrounded with parts. What type of test do you propose to see the "real" behavior of the device?

Claude
 

cabraham

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That's right, you did say that, but you are wrong. In a junction diode, it is voltage that controls current. Sending current through a diode will apply a voltage across it that will match the Schockley equation. I said that and explained why in terms of physics in my previous replies to you. It does no good to constantly repeat that current controls voltage. You have to explain why that is so in terms of the physics of the device, like I did for voltage controlling current many times before.

Ratch

I don't think so. Sending current through a diode results in lattice ion collisions, electrons recombining with holes, and ionization. Once the injected current in the form of holes and electrons cross the junction barrier, depletion zone is formed and forward voltage Vd is changed. THe current sent into the diode recombines, ionizes, and sets up a depletion zone giving rise to Vd, forward voltage drop. The equilibrium point will be consistent with Shockley's diode equation. The current was already in the diode before the voltage was updated. My plot proves that. I have witnessed this in the lab on scopes, when analyzing switching power converters.

Ratch, how does sending current through a diode "apply a voltage across that matches the SE (Shockley equation)? The inductor has no feedback mechanism. Once the electrons leave the inductor, travel through the wire, then reach the diode, the inductor has no control. The voltage developed on the diode junction is entirely a result of phenomena LOCAL in the diode material/junction. The SE is derived from semiconductor physics laws involving carrier lifetime and energy levels. When moving through an n type region, a hole has a statistical lifetime, i.e. the average time before said hole recombines with free electron, ditto for electrons in p region.

When recombination happens, the atom ionizes, it now has a charge imbalance. A large number of these ions just beyond the junction on both sides form a depletion zone. The local E field due to these charges repel new incoming charges, forming a barrier potential. The voltage is the line integral of this E field.

If we have 2 identical circuits, energizing inductor, then switching energy into junction diodes, but one circuit had 2 diodes in series, the other just 1 diode, we know what happens. Two barriers/depletion zones are formed in 1 circuit, vs. 1 barrier in the other, but the current at the moment of transfer is the same for both. Both circuits have same current entering diodes, but the stacked 2 diodes develop a double voltage drop vs. single for the other set up.

The forward voltage develops due to current entering diode(s). The V is not in control of I. That is all important. Besides, even w/o sims, ponder this for a moment. The forward drop Vd (similarly Vbe for a bjt), is the line integral of the depletion zone E field. The depletion zone is on the interior of the device, to get to it, charges must be transported through n and p regions, and cross the junction in order to force a change in Vd. Hence it requires a prior change in Id before a change in Vd can happen.

Anyway, I will, tonight, produce another sim using bjt instead of diode. This should make things clear for those still insisting I did not do a proper sim.

Claude
 
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Ratch

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The inductor is the energy source. It is connected directly across the diode. No resistors in between, nor other elements. This diode is as "in the raw" as you can ask for. The current in the diode is exactly determined by the inductor current the moment the switch engaged. The voltage follows the current. Here it is clear that the diode junction voltage is determined by its current. It is that clear.

No, an inductor is an energy storage device. It does not contain any energy in its magnetic field until current exists in its wire. The diode responds to the voltage across it even if that voltage is supplied by a CCS. Its that clear.

Ratch
 

Ratch

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How do you analyze a device all by itself? One has to energize it. The inductor in my sim did just that. Energy in the inductor is transferred to p-n junction diode w/o elements in between. The results are the same.

All by itself? Easy. Take a junction diode, for example. Hook up a power supply and ammeter in series with the diode and measure the current as the voltage is slowly increased.

Also, you never answered this question Ratch. The FET is not by itself, as you say it is surrounded by lots of energy storage elements.

What question is that? A FET can be tested and described by itself.

Yet it is clear in the plot that drain current Id is clearly following/tracking gate-source voltage Vgs, not gate current Ig. Although Ig leads Vgs in time, Id follows Vgs very accurately. The plots show the FET as being voltage controlled, because that is what a FET is, voltage controlled.

Yes, BJTs, FETs, and tubes are all voltage controlled current devices. Everyone keeps telling you, Claude, plots and equations do not determine what controls a device. Physics does.

If a bjt is also VC, why don't the plots indicate such? The external R. C, and diode elements around the FET and bjt parts do not change internal physics, you agree to that. But how do they "obfuscate" (your words) what is truly happening inside the device?

As was explained to you before, a collector current for a BJT in a circuit will be the same as using the same BJT taken outside the circuit by itself and applying the same Vbe as was used inside the circuit.

The bjt inserted in a network exhibits current controlled behavior.

No, it doesn't. The circuit might, but not the device.

A raw diode sans R,C, or other parts, straight across an inductor shows I controlling V. I can re-run the inductor plot w/ a bjt instead of a diode. That way energy transfers straight from inductor to bjt b-e junction w/o parts in the way. It won't change anything, but tonight I will do that and post.

It won't prove anything. A diode and inductor comprise a circuit. Getting involved in energy transfer between a diode and inductor won't show what you want to prove. A explanation using physics will if you can do it.

Ratch
 

Ratch

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Says who? I've never seen a product, piece of lab equipment, that consisted of a lone bjt w/o surrounding parts. The bjt is exclusively used by being surrounded with parts. What type of test do you propose to see the "real" behavior of the device?

Claude

Why do you mention products that are complex and consist of many parts? We are talking about a single part. How does the way a BJT is used have to do with how it is controlled? I propose you first understand the physics of the device, a BJT in this case, then apply a voltage or current to the input and measure the voltage and current at the output. Isn't that the way it is done?

Ratch
 

Ratch

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[QUOTE="Ratch, post: 1646148, member: 29797
That's right, you did say that, but you are wrong. In a junction diode, it is voltage that controls current. Sending current through a diode will apply a voltage across it that will match the Schockley equation. I said that and explained why in terms of physics in my previous replies to you. It does no good to constantly repeat that current controls voltage. You have to explain why that is so in terms of the physics of the device, like I did for voltage controlling current many times before.

Ratch

I don't think so. Sending current through a diode results in lattice ion collisions, electrons recombining with holes, and ionization. Once the injected current in the form of holes and electrons cross the junction barrier, depletion zone is formed and forward voltage Vd is changed. THe current sent into the diode recombines, ionizes, and sets up a depletion zone giving rise to Vd, forward voltage drop. The equilibrium point will be consistent with Shockley's diode equation. The current was already in the diode before the voltage was updated. My plot proves that. I have witnessed this in the lab on scopes, when analyzing switching power converters.

After the depletion zone is first set up when the two PN slabs are put together during manufacture, there is no more current until the barrier voltage is lowered by applying a voltage across the junction. Otherwise the diode will continuously circulate current without any voltage being applied. "Sending current through a diode" means applying a voltage across it. Plots prove nothing, physics does.

Ratch, how does sending current through a diode "apply a voltage across that matches the SE (Shockley equation)? The inductor has no feedback mechanism. Once the electrons leave the inductor, travel through the wire, then reach the diode, the inductor has no control.

Why are you bringing a passive element like an inductor into the discussion? I never said an inductor follows Schockley's equation.

The voltage developed on the diode junction is entirely a result of phenomena LOCAL in the diode material/junction. The SE is derived from semiconductor physics laws involving carrier lifetime and energy levels. When moving through an n type region, a hole has a statistical lifetime, i.e. the average time before said hole recombines with free electron, ditto for electrons in p region.

Yes, and what does carrier lifetimes have to do with anything?

When recombination happens, the atom ionizes, it now has a charge imbalance. A large number of these ions just beyond the junction on both sides form a depletion zone. The local E field due to these charges repel new incoming charges, forming a barrier potential. The voltage is the line integral of this E field.

Yes, this is basic stuff. That is why a voltage has to be applied to the junction to lower the barrier voltage and keep the diffusion charge flow going. That is how voltage controls current.

If we have 2 identical circuits, energizing inductor, then switching energy into junction diodes, but one circuit had 2 diodes in series, the other just 1 diode, we know what happens. Two barriers/depletion zones are formed in 1 circuit, vs. 1 barrier in the other, but the current at the moment of transfer is the same for both. Both circuits have same current entering diodes, but the stacked 2 diodes develop a double voltage drop vs. single for the other set up.

Why are you proposing a duplex problem?

The forward voltage develops due to current entering diode(s). The V is not in control of I. That is all important.

Yes, it is important to know that voltage controls current in a junction diode. The physics say so.

Besides, even w/o sims, ponder this for a moment. The forward drop Vd (similarly Vbe for a bjt), is the line integral of the depletion zone E field. The depletion zone is on the interior of the device, to get to it, charges must be transported through n and p regions, and cross the junction in order to force a change in Vd. Hence it requires a prior change in Id before a change in Vd can happen.

You got that backward. The physics show that a change in applied voltage lowers the barrier voltage and allows more diffusion current to exist across the junction.

Anyway, I will, tonight, produce another sim using bjt instead of diode. This should make things clear for those still insisting I did not do a proper sim.

Why bother? You have still not given a proper explanation using the physics of the device.

Ratch
 

cabraham

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By popular demand, I have simmed and attached plots of a bjt "in the raw". This bjt is naked, uncorrupted by resistors, diodes, capacitors, and other active devices. It is emancipated from the world and is free to show its true behavior. The base-emitter junction is directly connected across a very low resistance voltage source, around 0.01 ohm internal, far below the bjt internal base spreading and emitter resistance values. The collector is tied to a 5.0 volt supply also with tiny internal R. The signal is a plain and pure single cycle of a sine function, very common in communications. The frequency is 25 MHz, a very common value in IF applications. The device is the ubiquitous 2N2222A, around for half a century or so, designed into billions if things in use today. The voltage source has a dc offset of 750 mV, with one cycle of a +/- 10 mV peak sine curve.

Remember that the source drives the b-e junction, which is a base resistance of several tens of ohms, and a capacitance in the picofarad range. As expected the 3 terminal currents lag the voltage source, herein called CVS, since there is a time constant due to the rbb base resistance, and Cbe junction capacitance. No surprise at all. Please pay strict attention to what happens when the sine function completes 1 full cycle then flat lines at 750 mV permanently. I provided a zoom pic as well.

Vbe is flat lined, settled at its final value of 750 mV. But Ie is delayed, as we know, so which does Ic follow? NOT Vbe, but Ie. Ie takes several tens of nanoseconds to plateau to its final value. But Ic is virtually shadowing Ie, the tiny delay is due to finite time required for emitted electrons from emitter to cross base junction and enter collector to become collector current. Ic tracks Ie long after Vbe plateaued. I can detail what is happening later this week as I have trips to make tonight.

This is what my critics have been asking for, insisting that only when connected directly across a CVS can a bjt show its true behavior. Frankly, I don't understand how adding parts to a network messes up the internal behavior of a bjt, but here it is.

Comments/questions welcome. Peace to all.

Claude
 

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Ratch

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By popular demand, I have simmed and attached plots of a bjt "in the raw". This bjt is naked, uncorrupted by resistors, diodes, capacitors, and other active devices. It is emancipated from the world and is free to show its true behavior. The base-emitter junction is directly connected across a very low resistance voltage source, around 0.01 ohm internal, far below the bjt internal base spreading and emitter resistance values. The collector is tied to a 5.0 volt supply also with tiny internal R. The signal is a plain and pure single cycle of a sine function, very common in communications. The frequency is 25 MHz, a very common value in IF applications. The device is the ubiquitous 2N2222A, around for half a century or so, designed into billions if things in use today. The voltage source has a dc offset of 750 mV, with one cycle of a +/- 10 mV peak sine curve.

Remember that the source drives the b-e junction, which is a base resistance of several tens of ohms, and a capacitance in the picofarad range. As expected the 3 terminal currents lag the voltage source, herein called CVS, since there is a time constant due to the rbb base resistance, and Cbe junction capacitance. No surprise at all. Please pay strict attention to what happens when the sine function completes 1 full cycle then flat lines at 750 mV permanently. I provided a zoom pic as well.

Vbe is flat lined, settled at its final value of 750 mV. But Ie is delayed, as we know, so which does Ic follow? NOT Vbe, but Ie. Ie takes several tens of nanoseconds to plateau to its final value. But Ic is virtually shadowing Ie, the tiny delay is due to finite time required for emitted electrons from emitter to cross base junction and enter collector to become collector current. Ic tracks Ie long after Vbe plateaued. I can detail what is happening later this week as I have trips to make tonight.

This is what my critics have been asking for, insisting that only when connected directly across a CVS can a bjt show its true behavior. Frankly, I don't understand how adding parts to a network messes up the internal behavior of a bjt, but here it is.

Comments/questions welcome. Peace to all.

Claude

Ho-hum, Claude. Another moderately high frequency AC simulation which shows a current-voltage phase difference due to the junction capacitance, small as it is. Still no explanation using junction diode physics relating to your assertion that current controls voltage. You cannot determine control by looking at phase differences.

Ratch
 

Arouse1973

Adam
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Hello Claude

What your critics have been waiting for is for you to go through step by step the workings of the BJT according to the physics of the PN junction. I have lost count how many times Ratch has asked you to explain how YOU think it works from a physics point of view.

I explained why I think this happens in my previous posts. This is the junction capacitance playing a part. So the naked transistor as you say it is has internal capacitance because it's a simulation model. Why on earth do you think by just placing a small capacitor across the base emitter junction of an ideal transistor you suddenly change how the device operates? This is like saying by placing an ideal resistor across an ideal capacitor the capacitor now works differently.

Please listen to what Ratch is asking of you and explain the workings step by step one electron at a time is fine. Include what you think controls this electron and how it gets from the emitter to the collector. What is the entire mechanism of control starting with the base terminal. If you get this right then you will have learned that unfortunately you were wrong :)

Adam
 

cabraham

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Hello Claude

What your critics have been waiting for is for you to go through step by step the workings of the BJT according to the physics of the PN junction. I have lost count how many times Ratch has asked you to explain how YOU think it works from a physics point of view.

I explained why I think this happens in my previous posts. This is the junction capacitance playing a part. So the naked transistor as you say it is has internal capacitance because it's a simulation model. Why on earth do you think by just placing a small capacitor across the base emitter junction of an ideal transistor you suddenly change how the device operates? This is like saying by placing an ideal resistor across an ideal capacitor the capacitor now works differently.

Please listen to what Ratch is asking of you and explain the workings step by step one electron at a time is fine. Include what you think controls this electron and how it gets from the emitter to the collector. What is the entire mechanism of control starting with the base terminal. If you get this right then you will have learned that unfortunately you were wrong :)

Adam
Already done that. Browse my posts and you will see I did that. I explained using physics, mobility of carriers, lifetime, depletion zone, thermodynamics, crystal lattice vibrations, recombination, photon emission, etc. It's all there. Just how am I wrong Adam? Where did I err? Please explain using your understanding of "the physics".
Claude
 

Ratch

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Already done that. Browse my posts and you will see I did that. I explained using physics, mobility of carriers, lifetime, depletion zone, thermodynamics, crystal lattice vibrations, recombination, photon emission, etc. It's all there. Just how am I wrong Adam? Where did I err? Please explain using your understanding of "the physics".
Claude

No, Claude, you did not. All those things you listed above are either the effect from charge transport or have nothing to do with moving charges. They are not the cause. Like, for instance, photon emission, unless it is a phototransistor. I don't recall you ever mentioning that diffusion is the primary cause of charge transport, even though I explained many times why it is. As far as I can see, all your explanations fall flat or are irrelevant.

Ratch
 

cabraham

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No, Claude, you did not. All those things you listed above are either the effect from charge transport or have nothing to do with moving charges. They are not the cause. Like, for instance, photon emission, unless it is a phototransistor. I don't recall you ever mentioning that diffusion is the primary cause of charge transport, even though I explained many times why it is. As far as I can see, all your explanations fall flat or are irrelevant.

Ratch
How can diffusion be a "cause" of charge transport? Diffusion IS a form of charge transport, the other being drift. Please give me your definition of diffusion. It literally means "to spread out". If I place a bottle of perfume in the corner of a closed room, then open the bottle, the scent "diffuses" throughout the room. If I drop a little fabric softener into the washing machine, it spreads throughout the water.

In a bjt an external source of E field is needed in order to set up a "drift" of carriers. It could be a mic, antenna, cd player output, etc. Once the emitter emits electrons, they naturally diffuse through the base region. The E field motivates *drift*. Carriers are moving en masse from emitter to base and vice-versa.

Please look up "Fick's diffusion equation". Even w/o an external E field, it is the nature of charges to diffuse in a region, but in order to turn on a bjt, DRIFT is needed, and that takes place via an E field, which is set up by an external source.

One can never understand semi con physics using tunnel vision which focuses solely on the interior of the device. Currents in the device happen due to external stimulus, not internal diffusion. What part do I need to elaborate to make clear? Take a bjt w/o connections, sitting on a bench unconnected. Lattice vibrations happen in proportion to absolute temp (degrees Kelvin). The energy in these vibrations liberate electrons from Si atoms in the crystal leaving a hole. This is thermal generation of electron-hole pairs.

Electrons and holes **diffuse** through the base and emitter regions and cross the junction forming a depletion zone. This depletion zone E field is formed by the charges, and line integral of E field is a voltage know as thermal voltage, "Vt". At a temp of 25 C (298 K), room temp, this value is around 25.7 millivolt.

Without any type of external drive, diffusion is happening already. Now if external sources, such as a dc bias network, and an ac signal source are connected to the bjt, in addition to diffusion, we get drift as well. To make a bjt function, we need drift as well as diffusion. Both are important, and one cannot explain bjt behavior with just one of these two.

Diffusion happens, but it is not the "cause" of charge motion, because it is a type of charge motion. E field from base to emitter propels holes from base to emitter, electrons from emitter to base. Once electrons enter base, they naturally diffuse per Fick differential equation, then continue moving towards collector due to collector base E field. This is DRIFT, not diffusion.

Both drift and diffusion are types of charge motion. Thus neither can cause charge motion. How can charge motion be the "cause" of itself? Please ask specific directed questions if you wish me to elaborate. Sometimes, Ratch, I can't understand how something so basic escapes you. You sound intelligent, but you are simply unwilling to accept something counter to what you've believed a long time.

I will elaborate if requested. Peace.

Claude :)
 

Ratch

Mar 10, 2013
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How can diffusion be a "cause" of charge transport?

Because without diffusion, there would be no significant charge transport.

Diffusion IS a form of charge transport,

Diffusion is one method of charge transport.

the other being drift.

Yes, but drift is an insignificant part of a forward-biased diode. You can see how little it is by reverse-biasing a diode, which cuts off the diffusion current, and noting how little the drift current is.

Please give me your definition of diffusion. It literally means "to spread out". If I place a bottle of perfume in the corner of a closed room, then open the bottle, the scent "diffuses" throughout the room. If I drop a little fabric softener into the washing machine, it spreads throughout the water.

The flow of particles from a higher concentration to a lower concentration, provided the particles are mobile.

In a bjt an external source of E field is needed in order to set up a "drift" of carriers. It could be a mic, antenna, cd player output, etc. Once the emitter emits electrons, they naturally diffuse through the base region. The E field motivates *drift*. Carriers are moving en masse from emitter to base and vice-versa.

Here is where you show your misunderstanding. When a P and N slab are put together during manufacture, the excess electrons in the N slab and the excess holes in the P slab will meet and annihilate each other to form a depletion zone. After a time, the uncovered charges will form a barrier voltage that will limit any further diffusive action. Applying a forward-voltage is applied across the diode lower the barrier voltage and allow more diffusion to occur until a new equilibrium is reached. The voltage across the PN junction controls the diffusion and gives the diode its exponential voltage-current curve. What little drift current occurs is insignificant compared to the diffusion current.

Please look up "Fick's diffusion equation". Even w/o an external E field, it is the nature of charges to diffuse in a region, but in order to turn on a bjt, DRIFT is needed, and that takes place via an E field, which is set up by an external source.

No, drift current is insignificant to diffusion in a forward-biased diode.

One can never understand semi con physics using tunnel vision which focuses solely on the interior of the device.

Why not? The interior of the device is where its operation is determined.

Currents in the device happen due to external stimulus, not internal diffusion.

A BJT is a diffusion device. To say that diffusion does do not matter is just plain wrong.

What part do I need to elaborate to make clear?

How can a BJT operate without diffusion. How can you explain its exponential voltage-current curve without diffusion?

Take a bjt w/o connections, sitting on a bench unconnected. Lattice vibrations happen in proportion to absolute temp (degrees Kelvin). The energy in these vibrations liberate electrons from Si atoms in the crystal leaving a hole. This is thermal generation of electron-hole pairs.

No, pure silicon is not a good conductor and does not readily release its valence electrons. N-type silicon is doped with a pentavalent element that binds to the silicon atoms with four of its valance electrons and holds its fifth electron very loosely. The loose electrons wander around the N-type material and readily move into P-type material, which is looking for another electron to fill its bonding structure. This process is explained extensively in elementary books on semiconductors.

Electrons and holes **diffuse** through the base and emitter regions and cross the junction forming a depletion zone. This depletion zone E field is formed by the charges, and line integral of E field is a voltage know as thermal voltage, "Vt". At a temp of 25 C (298 K), room temp, this value is around 25.7 millivolt.

Yes, what else is new?

Without any type of external drive, diffusion is happening already. Now if external sources, such as a dc bias network, and an ac signal source are connected to the bjt, in addition to diffusion, we get drift as well. To make a bjt function, we need drift as well as diffusion. Both are important, and one cannot explain bjt behavior with just one of these two.

When no voltage is applied across the junction, the drift and diffusion currents are the same for a net total of zero. When the junction is forward-biased, the drift current hardly changes and the diffusion current increases exponentially.

Diffusion happens, but it is not the "cause" of charge motion, because it is a type of charge motion. E field from base to emitter propels holes from base to emitter, electrons from emitter to base. Once electrons enter base, they naturally diffuse per Fick differential equation, then continue moving towards collector due to collector base E field. This is DRIFT, not diffusion.

Wrong! Diffusion is the primary cause of charge motion. Drift is insignificant in a forward-biased diode. That is why they call a BJT a diffusion device. A FET works differently and is not called a diffusion device. Electrons and holes in N and P slabs diffuse when they are first put into contact without any external voltage.

Both drift and diffusion are types of charge motion. Thus neither can cause charge motion. How can charge motion be the "cause" of itself?

They both can cause charge motion independently of each other. Who said charge motion is the cause of itself?

Please ask specific directed questions if you wish me to elaborate.

OK, how can you claim that drift current is significant in a forward-biased diode when it is known to be otherwise?

Sometimes, Ratch, I can't understand how something so basic escapes you. You sound intelligent, but you are simply unwilling to accept something counter to what you've believed a long time.

Because I read what is in books written by knowledgeable authors.

I will elaborate if requested. Peace.

Please do.

Ratch
 

Arouse1973

Adam
Dec 18, 2013
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Already done that. Browse my posts and you will see I did that. I explained using physics, mobility of carriers, lifetime, depletion zone, thermodynamics, crystal lattice vibrations, recombination, photon emission, etc. It's all there. Just how am I wrong Adam? Where did I err? Please explain using your understanding of "the physics".
Claude

This is my understanding. With no electric field (Voltage) the average motion (current) of electrons within the junctions cancel out to be zero. When an electric field is applied across the junction the additional motion of the electrons in between their collision times (mean path time) is termed the drift current. The diffusion current is when the concentration of carriers on one side of the junction cause the attraction of the opposite carrier.

When an electric field (Voltage) is applied to the base of a transistor with respect to the emitter this electric field removes electrons from the base region. When enough have been removed, electrons from the emitter all rush in to try and fill these holes. The electrons from the emitter are not labelled as such so they now where they are going, they all feel this attraction to fill these holes they are all bouncing all over the place. When they all rush in to fill these holes most of them are attracted by the collector and swept into the collector region (diffusion) and only a few fill these holes in the base region (Base Current). Without this electric field none of this would happen.

Thanks
Adam
 

cabraham

Feb 12, 2015
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Because without diffusion, there would be no significant charge transport.

Charge transport is due to drift, where an electric field imparts force on charges, and diffusion, where density gradients determine charge motion.

Diffusion is one method of charge transport.

Never said otherwise.

Yes, but drift is an insignificant part of a forward-biased diode. You can see how little it is by reverse-biasing a diode, which cuts off the diffusion current, and noting how little the drift current is.

Sorry, that does not compute. A forward biased diode has its charge carriers subjected to an E field from an external source. That is drift, plain and simple. Where do you see any reputable text saying otherwise?

The flow of particles from a higher concentration to a lower concentration, provided the particles are mobile.

Agreed, classic diffusion mechanism.

Here is where you show your misunderstanding. When a P and N slab are put together during manufacture, the excess electrons in the N slab and the excess holes in the P slab will meet and annihilate each other to form a depletion zone. After a time, the uncovered charges will form a barrier voltage that will limit any further diffusive action. Applying a forward-voltage is applied across the diode lower the barrier voltage and allow more diffusion to occur until a new equilibrium is reached. The voltage across the PN junction controls the diffusion and gives the diode its exponential voltage-current curve. What little drift current occurs is insignificant compared to the diffusion current.

Drift is the reason the carriers cross the junction in the first place. They diffuse as well per the density gradient. The barrier voltage does not prevent drift. If the external source providing the E field has sufficient potential the drift continues right through the junction barrier. Take a 12 volt supply and a 10 kohm resistor in series with a p-n diode. When first energized, current exits the battery, through the resistor, into the diode. The original barrier voltage is just 25.7 mV. But carriers cross junction, and increase depletion zone charge and barrier potential. A 0.70 volt barrier is reached and the current is simply (12.0 - 0.70)/10kohm = 1.13 mA.

No, drift current is insignificant to diffusion in a forward-biased diode.

They both are active. W/o drift, how can charge carriers move in a uniform direction?

Why not? The interior of the device is where its operation is determined.

But external fields influence what happens on interior. Otherwise how do charges move? They need external stimulus. Really Ratch, where do you get this stuff?

A BJT is a diffusion device. To say that diffusion does do not matter is just plain wrong.

I never said diffusion does not matter, quite the contrary. It is one important mechanism in understanding semicon behavior, but it is not the only thing going on. Drift and diffusion both must be included in any serious discussion on this subject.

How can a BJT operate without diffusion. How can you explain its exponential voltage-current curve without diffusion?

Again, I have always stated that diffusion is important, but so is drift. You need both to fully understand the topic.

No, pure silicon is not a good conductor and does not readily release its valence electrons. N-type silicon is doped with a pentavalent element that binds to the silicon atoms with four of its valance electrons and holds its fifth electron very loosely. The loose electrons wander around the N-type material and readily move into P-type material, which is looking for another electron to fill its bonding structure. This process is explained extensively in elementary books on semiconductors.

But remember that the Si atoms greatly outnumber the donor/acceptor atoms. Take the n type material. The donor atoms, pentavalent, like arsenic, As, shed the 5th electron with little energy needed, and the key is that NO HOLE is left behind. The As atom bonds with 3 Si atoms in a tetrahedron and 4 electrons are covalent. Hence all 4 bonds are complete and a free electron does not see a hole here.

But remember that thermal vibrations due indeed knock electrons out of Si valence bands as well. It takes more energy to liberate a host atom's electron (Si), vs. a donor atom electron (As). If the 2 atom types had equal density, then the majority of electrons available for conduction would originate from donor atoms. But please remember that the host Si atoms greatly outnumber donor (As) atoms.

Electrons liberated from the Si host atoms are also part of the conduction process. The doping of the Si lattice with donor atoms provides an excess of electrons not the case in intrinsic Si. The electrons liberated from host Si leaves behind a hole, which a free electron may combine with. Not so with As donor atoms. The donors create an excess of electrons. But current conduction consists of electrons from donors, and host, and external source. All participate in conduction.

I said thermal vibrations generate electron-hole pairs in "Si", maybe "Si lattice" is a better choice of words. The thermal energy associated w/ lattice vibrations liberates electrons from both donor and host atoms, but much less energy is needed to liberate electrons from donors. But host atoms are the overwhelming majority.


Yes, what else is new?

No need to be hostile.

When no voltage is applied across the junction, the drift and diffusion currents are the same for a net total of zero. When the junction is forward-biased, the drift current hardly changes and the diffusion current increases exponentially.

With no junction voltage, how can drift happen? No external E field, so how do charges drift?

Wrong! Diffusion is the primary cause of charge motion. Drift is insignificant in a forward-biased diode. That is why they call a BJT a diffusion device. A FET works differently and is not called a diffusion device. Electrons and holes in N and P slabs diffuse when they are first put into contact without any external voltage.

Diffusion is one of two TYPES OF charge motion. Something has to give rise to charge motion, i.e. an E field. Diffusion happens at room temp with a device sitting unconnected on the table. A little diffusion, and no drift.

They both can cause charge motion independently of each other. Who said charge motion is the cause of itself?

Both can exist independently of each other. But w/o an external E field, how can you have drift?

OK, how can you claim that drift current is significant in a forward-biased diode when it is known to be otherwise?

Just how is it "known to be otherwise"? In all my course work, BE, MS, and Ph.D., drift in forward diodes is very significant. I'll post quotes later.

Because I read what is in books written by knowledgeable authors.

So do I, and many others. But taking courses is the best way. On our own we can pick up misconceptions and bad theories that would be quickly corrected in a class and with homework. Self study can get you started, but it leaves large gaps in your data base.

Please do.

I will, promise.

Ratch

Claude
 
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