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Honda ES 6500 generator

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting and Repair' started by Bullet, Jul 16, 2020.

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  1. Bullet

    Bullet

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    Jul 16, 2020
    Greetings. I have a Honda ES 6500 Genset that will only produce power on one side (leg) of what is supposed to be a "two" leg winding. I just rewound the stator, and am still experiencing the same failure. Power on the working leg is good and strong, but the other side produces nothing. Any help would be much appreciated...
     
  2. Bluejets

    Bluejets

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    957
    Oct 5, 2014
    Did the original stator winding test as defective..??
    If so, how did you test it.?
     
  3. Bullet

    Bullet

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    Jul 16, 2020
    Great question, I never checked it. When I began to troubleshoot it I noticed very darkened wires on the suspect circuit, so didn't bother just assumed... It has four pins out; two line, one return and one ground. One leg shows complete to ground, the other shows complete to return. According to the OWNERS manual, the gen is two separate circuits, so I am assuming this is correct. It's also exactly as the removed wraps were installed previously. I did remove the "rectifier" that I think is unrelated to the output, and it tested well. .495 on one leg, .491 on the other. Swapped lead polarity and open circuit on both. Fluke 87 set to diode position... I think that rectifier is just a power source or signal source for the auto-speed control anyway, and it doesn't appear to effect the AVR at all... I figured it should show continuity between both lines and return, but that is where I am lost, as I wound the stator identically to that which was factory, minus the "discoloration" of course...
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  4. Bullet

    Bullet

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    Jul 16, 2020
     
  5. Bullet

    Bullet

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    Jul 16, 2020
    Just to be clear, the four posts are: #1 Line, #2 Return, #3 Line, #4 Ground. I get continuity ONLY between #1 and #2, then ONLY between #3 and #4. Does that sound correct?
     
  6. Bluejets

    Bluejets

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    957
    Oct 5, 2014
    Tried to upload the pdf manual but too large a file.
    You can download it in Google search where the schematic is on page 44.

    It shows the stator winding as one full winding with two tappings.
    The ends of the full winding being the 2 circuit breakers and one tapping being the neutral or return.
    As well as this centre return tapping going top the supply line neutral, it is also one of the lines to the regulator,
    The other tap also feed the regulator circuit.
    None of the above connect in any way to ground in so far as the schematic is concerned and I see no reason for it to do so.

    Edit...managed to convert to a jpg below.......

    HondaES6500-page-0.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  7. Bullet

    Bullet

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    Jul 16, 2020
    OK. So, I should see continuity between the return and both power legs, but I don't. I am wondering if the guy that had the machine before me had messed with it. Right now, all four posts (terminals) in the frame are utilized in the fashion as described previously. I get .5 ohms between posts #3 and #4, and then 1.7 ohms between posts #1 and #2. Here is a pic, if it will go through. This was PRIOR to teardown... I just ran the machine with nothing connected, and excited the field manually with twelve volts. I got around 50 volts out of both legs, one, #1, to the "return" #2, and the other, #3 to the #4. Then I reattached all the genset connections (minus the output leads) and read 90 volts (low speed) between #1 and #2, and in turn, #3 and number #4. Then I measured between #1 and #3 and got 90 volts as well (where I would have expected to see 180 volts at low speed), then between #2 and #4, and that read around 5 volts. I am wondering if the #4 (from the stator), previously considered "ground", and the #2 (from the stator), previously considered "return" aren't supposed to be on the same post (terminal), with the "ground" wire from the control box simply being screwed to the generator chassis. There IS a hole minus a screw that appears to be somewhat "cleaner" than the other parts of the casting, with the ground symbol cast right into the metal. To test this theory, it would be easy enough to attach a small automotive fuse of low value to the "return" #2 position and hook the ground #4 to the return to "simulate" the connection, and this should blow if it is NOT correct. Am I safe to assume that? IAW, it appears to me that only THREE of the terminals on the block were supposed to be used, and I am assuming this might be where the previous owner gave up his troubleshooting... Thanks SOOOO much for the guidance!!!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  8. Bluejets

    Bluejets

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    Oct 5, 2014
    As I said previously, and if you look at the schematics, there is no reference to ground from the main stator windings.
    Measuring coils with a multimeter might be fine for a basic continuity check but you need to check for shorts with a growler or shorted turn tester.
     
    Bullet likes this.
  9. Bullet

    Bullet

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    Jul 16, 2020
    I reread what you had said, and I saw my issue and likely the issue that prompted the previous owner to give up. Indeed, it had been "miswired". Though the windings were likely bad due to the discoloration, the problem was the tap out. I put a bonded jumper on the one post and touched it to the return post, and sure enough the VOM read 180 volts, and I knew I had it... I can't thank you enough for your time and dragging me though it!!!!!!
     
  10. Bluejets

    Bluejets

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    Oct 5, 2014
    Different colour in the winding wire can be simply that, just diffirent colour insulation.

    If I could see what was, and what you have done to get it working, I could comment further but it appears you are on the right track.

    What did concern me was the reference you made to wiring being connected to ground.
    It is under certain circumstances and with MEN wiring systems with generators being connected as an alternative supply through changeover switching to have a grounded neutral BUT this is not as part of the original generator itself.
    Reason being one could quite easily end up livening up the earthing system through cross wiring.

    There is no accounting for hack attacks on electrical gear but as a lecky we tend to have an inbuilt sixth sense for identifying tell tale signs that this may be the case.
    As I said earlier, without actually seeing the device it's difficult to comment.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
    Bullet likes this.
  11. Bullet

    Bullet

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    Jul 16, 2020
    Not quite sure how he managed to do it, but the fellow that sold it to me told me he had used it for years with just the one leg working. Then he got another one as 220 became necessary for his work, and rather than "work" on this one further he just stored it for years. From my original question, I can see that I should have looked more closely at the output arrangement first, but THAT is how we learn, right? At any rate, the stator rewind was a real eye opening experience, and I am glad I took on the lesson. If your goal is ever to teach someone patience, have them rewind a generator stator!!!! Thanks again for the help, it is much appreciated....
     
  12. Bluejets

    Bluejets

    4,497
    957
    Oct 5, 2014
    Different strokes for different folks I guess.

    Done many motor rewinds and for me they are a pain in the arse really.
    Cut hands, cramps from odd working angles, three in hand rewinds into small rotor diameter stators and coils that refuse to lay down.
    More flogging with timber drifts and final testing to make certain no nicks.

    Been there done that, leave it to the young blokes now. :cool:
    Oddly enough, some just love it.
     
  13. Bullet

    Bullet

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    0
    Jul 16, 2020
    AMEN!!!
     
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