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hobby double sided pcb's

Discussion in 'CAD' started by samiam, May 14, 2007.

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  1. samiam

    samiam Guest

    Just throwing this idea out there - I am actually going to try it this
    week for a double sided LAYOUT

    1. print 4 images on the laser printer
    image 1=component side mirror
    image 2=solder side
    image 3=copper pour of the length of the board
    image 4=copper pour of the length of the board

    2. clean the double sided blank pcb
    3. use image 1 on one side and image 3 on the other side
    4. etch the board
    ***
    the result is that the component side is etched but the copper on the
    solder side is untouched
    5. drill out ALL HOLES
    6. use image 2 on the blank side and image 4 on the etched component
    side
    7. etch the board
    ***
    the result is that the solder side is etched but the copper side (
    prviously etched but now covered with etch resist) is untouched

    VIOLA
    double sided board - at the cost of more toner

    Registeration should be near perfect as the suffering through
    "eyeballing" the images is dispensed with

    A various of the above involves building the two sides on two single
    sided .032 or .024 boards and glueing them together ... I might try
    that in the future

    what do you guys think about this?
     
  2. samiam

    samiam Guest

    Actually I found a post on the yahoo homebrew_pcb group and on google
    that suggested using either of the following to coat the other side

    nail polish
    lacquer
    or
    varnish

    And the last two come in spray bottles which should make coating much
    easier
     
  3. Print two images, red side and blue side (call them component and solder,
    top and bottom, whatever you want).

    Lay down red side on one side of the pc board substrate using iron-on or
    photo process, whichever you prefer.

    Spray paint color of your choice on the other side.

    Etch.

    Remove spray paint with paint thinner.

    Drill two holes through red side pads.

    Pierce blue side artwork same two holes.

    Run small wires through red side pads and blue side artwork holes
    (registration).

    Lay down blue side art on the pc board substrate.

    Spray paint red side traces.

    Etch.

    Remove paint with paint thinner.

    Clean board.

    Jim
     
  4. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    I'm missing something here. Why is paint necessary at all?
    If you do this when you iron on the 2nd side of each board,
    paint is not necessary and everything can be etched in 1 go.
     
  5. samiam

    samiam Guest

    I'm missing something here. Why is paint necessary at all?

    Its a pain in the ass trying to align the holes without doing them
    one at a time
    Yes but getting the holes to register is much more difficult with
    this method. Its really better to do them one side at a time
     
  6. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    RST Engineering (jw) wrote:
    :::Drill two holes
    After ironing-on the 1st side,
    I drilled out 1 hole each near opposite corners of the board
    and stuck a straight pin thru each hole.
    I never had the slighted problem getting the 2nd layer registered.

    ....and registration-wise,
    I still don't see how putting on and taking off paint changes
    anything.
    ..
    ..
    It would be nice if you left in the attribution in your blockquotes.
     
  7. DJ Delorie

    DJ Delorie Guest

    You put on the paint so you can etch the first side separately from
    the second. That way, the drilling and handling doesn't mess up the
    first side. Iron and etch ONE side, drill and align, iron and etch
    SECOND side.
     
  8. Guest

    If you have a double sided UV source it is a lot easier to do it
    photographically. Take your plots of both sides and line them up on
    top of each other. Stick them together round three edges to make an
    envelope, put pcb in envelope and expose to UV. Others have suggested
    sunlight works better than a UV source so this may work for you.

    Colin
     
  9. Marra

    Marra Guest

    By the time you have bought all the chemicals, copper clad board etc.
    Then still failed.

    It would have been cheaper and less traumatic to get someone to make
    it for you.

    www.ckp-railways.talktalk.net/pcbcad21.htm
     
  10. DJ Delorie

    DJ Delorie Guest

    Why the defeatist attitude?
    We've had this discussion before. There are many valid reasons,
    including cost, for making your own pcbs. It's not *always* the right
    thing to do, but sometimes it is.
     
  11. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    Even if you DO fail the 1st time, you have a greater appreciation of
    ways to get the pros to get your boards back to you more quickly.
    (Fewer mistakes/questions == Faster turnaround)
    Maybe. Depends on what parameters count most to you
    and how you weight your time:

    DIY PCBs == Protos *NOW* -- Tim Auton
    http://groups.google.com/group/sci....ls+solder.mask+materials+chemicals+space+time

    Good technique + cheap materials == Useful PCBs -- slebetman, DJ
    http://groups.google.com/group/sci....an-*-*-PCB-house+qq+mask.helps+not-*-required

    If the boards are going to stay in-house, DIY could be just the
    ticket.
    ..
    ..
    http://www.google.com/search?q=two-hyphens-and-a-space+-stripped+-FWIW+-Suspensive
     
  12. Marra

    Marra Guest

    I have been in electronics for 25-30 years and have never been
    impressed with amateur PCB's.

    If we show a customer a PCB it has to look the business.

    I think it requires quite a bit of skill to produce PCB's at home.
    Even the drilling requires a high level of dexterity to ensure the
    holes at least line up fairly well.

    Over etching/ under etching both cause problems.

    One problem I had was uneven etching, where one side of the board was
    over etched and the other side under etched !

    I have seen the professionals get it seriously wrong so I dont expect
    much from an amateur.

    I once got a PCB back and it was all copper but it had the holes in
    the right place.
    Some idiot had input a wrong size into the system at the pcb
    manufacturers end.
    At least we got it redone free of charge.
     
  13. DJ Delorie

    DJ Delorie Guest

    I don't expect mine to be impressive, just quick and functional.
    I hope you put as much effort into your grammar.
    I use a sponge to etch, so I can control over/under etching fairly
    well. At least, well enough for my unimpressive boards.
     
  14. Amateurs built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic.

    Jim
     
  15. Joel Kolstad

    Joel Kolstad Guest

    You probably don't get out much then. :) I've seem homebrew PCBs that
    looked as good as what you get off of a $40k LPKF-type machine, for
    instance.
    For a final PCB, sure, but personally I'd be a little wary of any company
    that *didn't* have a bunch of cut boards or "ugly construction"-style boards
    around that they did various tests/development on. It tends to vary with
    the compleixty of design, of course -- with digital boards there's often no
    need for a prototype.
    Sure, it does, and for those in the U.S. getting PCBs made commercially is
    cheap enough that it's difficult to argue that it's worthwhile to make your
    own unless you simply enjoy doing it. For many people outside the U.S.,
    even something like US$39 is still expensive enough that most hobbyists have
    no choice but to make their own.
     
  16. You can eliminate 3 and 4 if you are careful.

    Many years ago in my youth I made double sided boards one at home one side
    at a time as you describe by floating the board on the surface of the
    etchant. Ferric chloride has quite a high surface tension and it if fairly
    easy to float the board on top of it. It is even possible to agitate it a
    bit if you are careful. If it sinks, no matter so long as you fish it out
    again quickly.
     
  17. You can eliminate 3 and 4 if you are careful.

    Many years ago in my youth I made double sided boards one at home one side
    at a time as you describe by floating the board on the surface of the
    etchant. Ferric chloride has quite a high surface tension and it if fairly
    easy to float the board on top of it. It is even possible to agitate it a
    bit if you are careful. If it sinks, no matter so long as you fish it out
    again quickly.
     
  18. samiam

    samiam Guest

    It would have been cheaper and less traumatic to get someone to make
    And this ladies and gentlemen is the reason our country is in decline
    manufacturingwize.

    This notion that: SOMEONE ELSE should always do it for you: CHEAPER

    I need prototypes so sending them out at $100 a pop for a 4x6 double
    sided boarded is a waste of money.

    As for gathering the chemicals and tools - I ALREADY have that from
    earlier projects and with the exception of FECL and bare copper- its all
    a one time investment
     
  19. More like steady, unless you have an overwhelming interest in
    employment rather than production.
    Only if your overall time is worth less. Their productivity and
    quality is bound to be higher. Hobbyists can count their time at $0/hr
    (or perhaps they would pay for have such fun) but the rest of us need
    to use a higher (positive) number. You may lose out on the learning of
    how to make boards, but you will learn how to create usable Gerber
    files and drill files.
    And will you dispose of the chemicals responsibly when they are spent?
    That's typically a significant cost for businesses that produce
    prototypes.


    Best regards,
    Spehro Pefhany
     
  20. samiam

    samiam Guest

    And will you dispose of the chemicals responsibly when they are spent?

    Absolutely.
    I pour it into a plastic bottle and seal the cap. Then write FeCL and
    hazardous on the side.

    I take it to either the waste disposal plant in the next village or to
    the local repair shop. They know what it is and charge $3 to dispose
    of it.

    Trust me they know what it is and its not mixed with other liquid waste
    they have to dispose of. Its one trip to the waste disposal/threatment
    plant for them.
     
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