High price of 600 amp circuit breakers?

[Ignoramus5533]

I came into possession of a few used 400-600A circuit breakers. Each
is the size of a milk jug. While researching prices on them and such
(they sell for $150-200 on ebay), I learned that some cost many
thousands of dollars new. I saw numbers from $2,500 and higher.

I am curious just what makes them so expensive. Do they have any
precious materials inside? Or what?

i

 

[Chris Lewis]

I came into possession of a few used 400-600A circuit breakers. Each
is the size of a milk jug. While researching prices on them and such
(they sell for $150-200 on ebay), I learned that some cost many
thousands of dollars new. I saw numbers from $2,500 and higher.

I am curious just what makes them so expensive. Do they have any
precious materials inside? Or what?

They're basically relatively low demand things used
commercially/industrially, and they're much more rugged than
their residential counterparts.

It takes good design to reliably interrupt a 400-600A circuit without
blowing up the neighborhood. Especially at higher voltages.

If you think that's bad, you should see the breakers they have
to use with higher ampacities and voltages. "air blast arc
suppression" etc. I'm glad we don't have to do that at a mere
15A ;-)

 

[SQLit]

I came into possession of a few used 400-600A circuit breakers. Each
is the size of a milk jug. While researching prices on them and such
(they sell for $150-200 on ebay), I learned that some cost many
thousands of dollars new. I saw numbers from $2,500 and higher.

I am curious just what makes them so expensive. Do they have any
precious materials inside? Or what?

i

Bigger frame breakers have always cost a lot more. Larger frame breakers are
can be made to withstand larger fault currents. Interrupt larger current at
higher voltages.
I used to work for an OEM and we had some circuit breakers that were well
over $25000.00 (SPB series) "rebuilt". New more like $40k.

I have installed some medium voltage vacuum breakers that were well over
$100k each.

Unfortunately they are just so much boat anchor material unless you have a
need for one of them. They are not interchangeable.
There is a thriving market in rebuilding, testing and installing such
equipment.

 

[Ignoramus5533]

They're basically relatively low demand things used
commercially/industrially, and they're much more rugged than their
residential counterparts.
OK.

It takes good design to reliably interrupt a 400-600A circuit without
blowing up the neighborhood. Especially at higher voltages.

Sure, I agree.

What you are saying, in other words, is that their price reflects not
only the production costs, but also costs of R&D etc, spread out among
relatively few produced pieces. Hence the cost.

Right?

Some of the new breakers somewhat similar to mine have a MSRP of
$11,666!!!

http://www.circuitbreakersurplus.com/Circuit-Breakers-Siemens-grp-33-start-31.html

i

 

[Ignoramus5533]

My experience in refining precious metals taught me that high amperage
contacts are usually made from a compound of silver and some other element,
often tungsten. You can expect the breakers to contain silver, but that
hardly explains the high cost, particularly when a contact is generally well
under a troy ounce in size. Cost is likely attributed to a high
degree of engineering and limited production.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' too it! <g>

I see. That makes sense....

i

 

[Ignoramus5533]

Bigger frame breakers have always cost a lot more. Larger frame
breakers are can be made to withstand larger fault
currents. Interrupt larger current at higher voltages. I used to
work for an OEM and we had some circuit breakers that were well over
$25000.00 (SPB series) "rebuilt". New more like $40k.

I would understand that, for vacuum units.

I have installed some medium voltage vacuum breakers that were well over
$100k each.

Unfortunately they are just so much boat anchor material unless you
have a need for one of them. They are not interchangeable. There
is a thriving market in rebuilding, testing and installing such
equipment.

I am not sure about interchangeability. My 400-600 A breakers
(Siemens, ITE, Westinghouse etc) simply take 3 wires in and 3 wires
going out. They do not mount on special connector panels, like
residential breakers.

i

 

[Chris Lewis]

What you are saying, in other words, is that their price reflects not
only the production costs, but also costs of R&D etc, spread out among
relatively few produced pieces. Hence the cost.

Right?

Right. Remember also that these things tend to be multiple pole breakers
too. So, trying to see some relationship in cost between one of these
beasties and a single slot 15A residential breaker is bound to fail ;-)

 

[Ignoramus5533]

Right. Remember also that these things tend to be multiple pole breakers
too. So, trying to see some relationship in cost between one of these
beasties and a single slot 15A residential breaker is bound to fail ;-)

I got it. Thanks Chris, Harold, SQLit.

I have a related question. I want to sell them on ebay and would like
to get as much as I can. The obvious things I can do is wipe the dust,
photograph them very well and test them with an ohm meter. Is there
anything else, something unobvious, that I could do?

thanks, as always.

i

 

[Chris Lewis]

I have a related question. I want to sell them on ebay and would like
to get as much as I can. The obvious things I can do is wipe the dust,
photograph them very well and test them with an ohm meter. Is there
anything else, something unobvious, that I could do?

Check for cracks, corrosion or pitting on the connectors. Ensure
that the contacts open/close when you operate the handle.

If you can see/get at the contacts, check them for heavy pitting.
[Sometimes these things have replaceable contacts, so you may
be able to get at them.]

Beyond that, you'd need to test them to see if they trip for
overcurrent. This is absolutely _not_ something you can test
short of having a purpose built lab with a lot of very
expensive gear, least of which being a power supply that can
deliver one heck of a lot of amps. And a shorting switch
that won't explode at, say, 100,000 amps.

 

[Ignoramus5533]

I have a related question. I want to sell them on ebay and would like
to get as much as I can. The obvious things I can do is wipe the dust,
photograph them very well and test them with an ohm meter. Is there
anything else, something unobvious, that I could do?

Check for cracks, corrosion or pitting on the connectors. Ensure
that the contacts open/close when you operate the handle.

If you can see/get at the contacts, check them for heavy pitting.
[Sometimes these things have replaceable contacts, so you may
be able to get at them.]

Thank you. all good ideas.

Beyond that, you'd need to test them to see if they trip for
overcurrent. This is absolutely _not_ something you can test
short of having a purpose built lab with a lot of very
expensive gear, least of which being a power supply that can
deliver one heck of a lot of amps. And a shorting switch
that won't explode at, say, 100,000 amps.

I agree. I could use some welding cables and several car batteries,
and use large steel flats for switching, but I do not see the point
and it is just too dangerous.

Checking the contacts is a great idea.

i

 

[Ignoramus5533]

In addition to the low demand and cost of engineering, another thing that
probably inflates the cost is reliability testing. Very often the same
product is labeled and sold at different prices, the primary difference
being the amount of testing that went into ensuring the reliability of the
device. A good example is the difference between military and commercial
electronic parts.

Fair enough.

In your case, you cannot guarantee reliability, provide a warrantee or
perhaps even guarantee functionality and this will all substantially reduce
the price for an eBay customer. Good luck, I find that electronic parts
sell slowly on eBay. Look at the number of bids on those parts for a
preview. Stuff is only worth what someone will pay for it, fortunately you
paid nothing. I think you will do better with a return if DOA policy rather
than an AS-IS policy.

Try search ebay for:

"400 amp" circuit breaker -(new)
"600 amp" circuit breaker -(new)

(cut and paste this into the search box)

You would find that these breakers briskly sell for about $150-230,
with the average price of about $190-200 or so.

If you look closely at ebay histories of auction winners, you would
see that they are professional dealers of circuit breakers. What I
suspect they do, is buy these breakers on ebay, test them, perhaps
replace contacts or whatever, call them "FACTORY RECONDITIONED" and
resell to their own customers for a few times more than what they
paid.

Thusly, I am leaning towards selling all these breakers in one lot, to
save shipping to such buyers. I would prefer selling to these
professionals instead of dealing with clueless individual buyers who
buy them to use at their locations.

i

 

[Ignoramus5533]

Send an email to these pro dealers (eBay sellers) and ask if they would like
to buy your lot directlly from you. You may not get the max price but you
won't have to wait through several unsuccessful auctions (assuming you use a
minimum price) or get lowballed cause there is another just like it this
week etc.

Thanks. My thinking was that these sellers would have an informational
advantage over me (they know more than I do) and I would not get what
I could get for them, if I offered them privately. They know what
these breakers are. If I listed them on ebay as one lot with 10-11
breakers in the lot (forgot how many I have in fact), they they would
at least bid against one another, and that would reduce my
disadvantage.

i

 

[SQLit]

I would understand that, for vacuum units.


I am not sure about interchangeability. My 400-600 A breakers
(Siemens, ITE, Westinghouse etc) simply take 3 wires in and 3 wires
going out. They do not mount on special connector panels, like
residential breakers.

i

Those sound like the "universal or OEM" mounts. Almost everyone makes those
in some form.

 

[Ignoramus5533]

Those sound like the "universal or OEM" mounts. Almost everyone makes those
in some form.

Yes, that's right. I could screw them to any metal sheet, it seems. I
will double check tonight, they are still in my pickup.

i

 

[DeepDiver]

It takes good design to reliably interrupt a 400-600A circuit
without blowing up the neighborhood. Especially at higher
voltages.

If you think that's bad, you should see the breakers they have
to use with higher ampacities and voltages. "air blast arc
suppression" etc.

Speaking of which, check out this very cool site:

http://teslamania.delete.org/frames/longarc.htm

In particular, check out the two (large) videos of the HV disconnect
switches opening hot. Very exciting!

You may also be fascinated by the coin shrinking tricks elsewhere on the
author's site.

- Michael

 

[Ignoramus5533]

What is the warranty you are offering? We've used some used
electrical equipment in our shop, but it came from dealers with a
warranty and reputation for good stuff. Cluless individuals are not
interested in 600A breakers, and most pros are not intrested in
screwing around wiht questionable equpment. Just not worth the
risk.

I actually have a good reputation, 300+ 100% positive ebay feedback.

And it is not because I never screw up. I do screw up from time to
time, but I make it right afterwards.

What you have is of interest to a very small segment of the electrical
market. You may be very disappointed in what you are offered for them.

I will be elated if, say, I get $150 apiece. That would be many
times over what I paid for them. I do hope to get $180-200 apiece,
which is in line with recent ebay sales.

If I sell these breakers separately, I can give buyers a 5 day right
of return, they pay shipping. If I sell to dealers, all in one lot, I
would give them no warranty. They are dealers and know what they are doing.

i

 

[Ignoramus5533]

| I came into possession of a few used 400-600A circuit breakers. Each
| is the size of a milk jug. While researching prices on them and such
| (they sell for $150-200 on ebay), I learned that some cost many
| thousands of dollars new. I saw numbers from $2,500 and higher.
|
| I am curious just what makes them so expensive. Do they have any
| precious materials inside? Or what?
|
| i

There's a new kind out there now, which is wiping out the demand for the
older style. All amperages of the same body size of breaker are all the
same breaker, with a small module plugged in to control the trip point.
Folks love the low parts count. I've never priced them, but I was impressed
when I first saw 'em.

The new ones are the one with a little thing in the middle with tyhe
amp number, that is separate from the case, right? Like a little
depressed button.

In that range, there's so few people that need them the economy of
scale keeps the price up, but I imagine that the used prices are
really good. Industrial customers usually don't tend to buy stuff
like that used.

They could easily sell for $150-200, it seems, at least a half of wat
I have if not more. Gotta look at them more closely.

i

--

 

[Chris Lewis]

You may also be fascinated by the coin shrinking tricks elsewhere on the
author's site.

I've seen those. Ouch!

 

[Chris Lewis]

I actually have a good reputation, 300+ 100% positive ebay feedback.

Yes, but does that feedback say you're a reliable supplier of
useable/working high amp breakers? _That's_ what's meant by "good
reputation" in this context. eBay reputation is somewhat irrelevant
in this context.

 

[Ignoramus21085]

Yes, but does that feedback say you're a reliable supplier of
useable/working high amp breakers? _That's_ what's meant by "good
reputation" in this context. eBay reputation is somewhat irrelevant
in this context.

Well, it says that I do not sell bad things by claiming that they are
good things.

i