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help wiring 3 phase washing machine motor

Discussion in 'Power Electronics' started by issicus, Aug 9, 2017.

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  1. issicus

    issicus

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    Jul 12, 2012
    I have a washing machine motor that I want to be able to control the speed of. the model is j52hrc-0107 , it says it's 190v . I have no idea what I'm doing . is there some way to spoof the computer that controls the power supply and make it work like that, or am i dreaming.

    If I take it to some electronics repair person could they set it up for me ?
     

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  2. Minder

    Minder

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    Apr 24, 2015
    You've got my interest, never heard of a 3phase motor for a washing machine except the latest outrunner types such as Fischer-Paykel, but they are not the same as a 3ph induction motor.
    Are you sure it is 3phase? if so I would expect a large industrial model, maybe?
    M.
     
  3. issicus

    issicus

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    Jul 12, 2012
    well I got it spinning. will it damage the motor if I run it with to low of a capacitor ? I tried a 250uf and it burnt out instantly . it seemed to be running fine on a 1000uf but it is going faster than I want it to.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  4. Minder

    Minder

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    I googled and it seems like a standard 1ph motor, if you go too low it may have a problem starting.
    There is a little leeway in sizing, what difference are you thinking of?
    Make sure it is AC motor run rated.
    M.
     
  5. issicus

    issicus

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    Jul 12, 2012
    I want it to go at least half the speed it's going now. Im thinking I should be able to use what's on this board to make it go at a slow speed but I only see 3 capacitors 2x1000uf and a 250uf which I burnt out.

    right now it's running straight 120v , can I just stick a light dimmer on it to adjust the speed?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  6. Bluejets

    Bluejets

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    Oct 5, 2014
    AC motor speed is usually governed by the number of poles and frequency.
     
  7. Minder

    Minder

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    Apr 24, 2015
    1ph induction motor do not take well to speed control, if shaded pole or small PSC motor up to 1/2 HP it is usually possible.
    What are the motor details on the plate?
    M.
     
  8. issicus

    issicus

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    Jul 12, 2012
    I know it can run much slower because I have seen it wash cloths and sometime it goes really slow. so right now Im trying to figure out what I can solder in with this capacitor to lower the frequency .
     

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  9. Bluejets

    Bluejets

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    You won't do it by just poking a capacitor in here or there.
    You will need to retain the main controller and go from there.
    Details of similar ones hacked on the net.
    One example here...
     
  10. SparkyVT

    SparkyVT

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    Aug 9, 2017
    Not to pry to much, but 190V, where about in the world do you live? I have seen 3 phase 110, 208, 480 and 560V but never 190. If you are running it at 120V and it is rated at 190V that maybe why the capacitor burned up. The typical voltage should be within 10% of the nameplate. And I agree with minder, seeing the motors nameplate would definitely be more helpful in finding a solution to this.
     
  11. Minder

    Minder

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    Apr 24, 2015
    Apparently it is a 3phase induction motor, with a custom VFD, so you would need to use this controller, and find a way to control the speed signal or use one of the cheap Huanyang on ebay.
    M.
     
  12. issicus

    issicus

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    Jul 12, 2012
    that looks cool and I would do it except I don't really want to build the half/full duplex adapter. can i buy one somewhere?
     
  13. Bluejets

    Bluejets

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    More than likely the voltage level generated by the controller, not necessarily the local supply authority.
     
  14. duke37

    duke37

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    Jan 9, 2011
    If it is a VFD (variable frequency drive) there will be a rectifier and big capacitor to give DC for the drive.
    Are the capacitors rated for AC or DC? Have you put the wrong type in?
     
  15. Minder

    Minder

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    Apr 24, 2015
    There is at least one large electrolytic visible on the board, plus a bridge rectifier.
    M.
     
  16. Hbaker7729

    Hbaker7729

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    Apr 24, 2019
    Did you ever figure this out? I have tons of these from work (well, very similar). So far i figure the controller has line in, 6 wire bunch -2 for tach and 3 for coils 1 green ground, and a connector for data signal. When powered I can hear relays kick on and the coils energize for a split second, my arduino own signal does t make it do anything. My question is the data cable has 3 leads labeled +5v DATA and GND, any idea on the frequency/shape of the pwm signal used on washers?
     
  17. hevans1944

    hevans1944 Hop - AC8NS

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    Jun 21, 2012
    Did you not see the warning on the label that says "Do not connect motor to AC line?" And do you know why it says, above that message, "Use motor only with electronic control in original machine?"

    I agree 101% with your statement. You don't have a clue what you are doing. Of course a person highly skilled in the ways of computers and such can "spoof the computer that controls the power supply and make it work like that..." And, yes, you are dreamin.

    Could you take it to some electronics repair person? Sure, there are dozens of folks like that just waiting for your visit. Bring lots of cash. Some of them may even know what they are doing. Or some may be smart enough to tell you that they can't help you, because they know nothing about three-phase, variable frequency, motor drives for washing machines... and even less about how to "spoof" whatever computer, microprocessor, or manufacturer's proprietary thingamabob actually controls the washing machine.

    If you can find a service manual for the washing machine, complete with wiring diagrams and schematic diagrams and parts list and post it here, or a link to someplace we can find it if it is too large to upload, there might be someone here who can help you. Otherwise, you are just wasting our time with your unknowledgeable monkey shenanigans.
     
  18. Fish4Fun

    Fish4Fun So long, and Thanks for all the Fish!

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    Aug 27, 2013
    @Hbaker7729 ....

    At the risk of continuing the hi-jacking of this thread ...

    I am interested in investigating a DIY driver for these 3-phase motors ... the first big **IF** is: IF they are truly capable of operation beyond +/- 10% of name-plate RPM ... I suspect they might NOT be. The motor name-plate linked above stated 190Vdc, 310hz and 17,500rpm. 17,500rpm translates to 293 rps (revolutions per second) which would seem to indicate a discrepancy ...

    The 310hz drive frequency in a variable speed 3-phase motor would generally indicate an rpm that is a factor of the drive frequency ... for instance, in the common 3-phase spindle motors available from china, 24,000 rpm occurs @ a drive frequency of 400hz ... 24,000/60 = 400hz ... So there is 1:6 direct relationship between rpm and drive frequency ... 300hz = 18,000rpm ... 200hz = 12,000rpm, 100hz = 6,000rpm, 50hz = 3,000rpm ...etc,etc

    In the RC world where a "sensorless" driver is typically employed the frequency is obfuscated and replaced by the more familiar "kV" from brushed DC motor specifications where "kV" means RPM/Volt ... In these motors permanent magnets are used in the rotor (regardless if it is an "in-runner" or an "out runner") and the stators are traditional coils. To increase torque in these motors the stator to rotor ratio is defined so that there are numerous electrical cycles per revolution ... to maximize this effect the stators are typically double wound (one clockwise and one counter-clockwise) doubling the number of "stator cogs" per revolution ... But these motors can certainly be driven "synchronously" (ie with a fixed frequency and "sensorless sensing" employed to vary the current, or can simply be driven by a constant voltage source @ any given kV voltage mapped frequency ... ).

    Traditional 3-phase motors are "induction motors" ... In an induction motor the "rotor coils" are considered to be a shunted secondary in a transformer ... in the real world these secondaries are laminated iron cores with "shunts" placed in them ... these "shunts" typically look like the cores had slots cut in them and were subsequently filled by welding them closed. This type of rotor is designed to operate at a particular frequency and cannot operate reliably more than +/- 10% of design frequency without excessive current/heat OR significant loss of torque ...

    Induction motors are of no interest to me. They are "low cost" engineered solutions for a specific purpose (ie specific voltage/current/frequency/torque) and have no real use outside of design parameters.

    If you want to investigate these motors, disassemble a few and see if they employ permanent magnet OR induction rotors... **IF** they are the former then they are of interest to me and there is quite likely a demand for them ... open a new thread AND/OR PM me and we will discuss how to proceed ... if they are the latter (ie induction motors) then your best bet would be to find/create an application for these motors that suits their specific design parameters. Unless there is a large supply of these motors with identical parameters AND there is an equally large demand for these motors; I doubt seriously developing a driver would be worthwhile.

    Good Luck!

    Fish
     
  19. Minder

    Minder

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    Apr 24, 2015
    A few discrepancies in this post, first, 3ph induction motors are used extensively using VFD control and can control a motor down to zero rpm with the correct drive.
    I have seen a demo of one manuf. illustrate this in a gantry crane lift motor where the load can be held stationary, if needed.
    Also elevator control is possible.
    In the case of PM AC motors, there are BLDC & AC 3phase, examples are the Fischer-Paykel and the ECM used in HVAC applications, these motors can vary from 2 pole to 8 and up.
    The BLDC and the AC are practically identical in physical construction and appearance, just the means of commutation are different.
    The RC three conductor types are BLDC motors.
    M.
     
  20. Fish4Fun

    Fish4Fun So long, and Thanks for all the Fish!

    436
    99
    Aug 27, 2013
    @Minder

    Thanks for proving one more time that things I was told casually in the previous Millennium by people with dubious credentials are not immutable fact, and that Google truly is a resource with more accurate and salient information:

    There are many detailed examples, schematics and white papers that deal specifically with this topic, and I have some reading to do.

    In retrospect the statement that common 3 phase induction motors were "locked" into a specific frequency // RPM likely stemmed from an assumption that the AC voltage was fixed .... Obviously if the frequency is variable then controlling the voltage//current at any given frequency is simply part of the driver design ...

    I read a research paper some time ago on the theory of variable pole count motors but I have not read anything (nor to be fair looked for anything to read) to indicate to me the theory had moved to production motors .... more reading to do!

    Obviously I need to amend my previous dismissal of speed control in 3-phase induction motors, because now I am very curious to experiment with one!

    Thanks!

    Fish
     
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