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Discussion in 'General Electronics Discussion' started by Craig4568, Sep 7, 2012.

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  1. Craig4568


    Sep 7, 2012
    Hi Guys thanks in advance for any help

    I'm looking for help in building a tracking device from the ground up I have a business idea I don't want to go into here,as patents will be required.

    I have a background in sales, marketing,and distribution and need some help in the design phase

    What I know at present is the Gadget I'm going to have made does have a large market and I would be willing to discuss terms with the right engineer who can make this idea a reality

    The technology is already available so I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel and you would preferably be from the north of England but i travel all over the UK so i f you think you can help please get in touch

    sorry about being so vague hope someone can help but as they say nothing ventured nothing gained

  2. davenn

    davenn Moderator

    Sep 5, 2009
    hi craig
    welcome to the forums

    Then you are probably not in the right place

    This is going to require large amounts of up front funding for anyone to be able to do designing from the ground up.... are you financially prepared for 5 to 6 figure design and prototyping costs ?

    All I could really say is good luck and see if you can find a design house to do the work for you :)

  3. Craig4568


    Sep 7, 2012

    Hi Dave what happened to the entrepreneurial spirit this can be made from of the shelf parts i cant see why i would have to spend that sort of money on something than can be put together by someone with more knowledge than me admittedly.
    As i said I"m not reinventing the wheel i do have money to invest in the whole setup and have accounted for design and prototyping costs all I need to know if is someone is willing to take a step forward with me and see if we can get this thing made

    can you point me in the direction of a design house if you think i'm in the wrong place ?
  4. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

    Jan 21, 2010
    How much of the IP will you offer to someone that you are asking to provide risk capital and expertise to turn what may be a dream into reality?

    Alternatively, what hourly rate would you be prepared to pay?

    There's an awful lot of work that must be done (and money to be spent) to get an already designed piece of electronic apparatus ready for market.

    Do you know what you need to do to CE mark it for example?
  5. Jotto


    Aug 24, 2012
    Its very hard to patent things in electronics because so many things are out there. I designed a testing device that would show you transmit and received signals and power. Well the circuit has been used many times in many other applications. I can't patent that, the only thing that could possibly allow me to control the item was the housing I used, which was a patent controlled by the another company that made the connector. Since mine was using two of the companies connectors made into one with a smd 3 LED device.

    The market was not big, but the cost of making the mold for the item was cost prohibited for mass production. So, I just gave it away to people in the field.

    Electronics is one of the hardest areas to receive a patent.
  6. donkey


    Feb 26, 2011
    a patent is easy to get, as is copyrights. the issue comes from what you use.
    if you design every aspect from the ground up you have the rights to a patent. if however you combine 2 elements that already exist you have the rights to copyright. take an alarm clock for example. everyone had a clock and others had radios beside their bed, the guy who combined the 2 had a unique idea, as such he had the rights to stop others copying it if he wished.
    this is not a new thing and something that ALOT of people don't realise is the legal implications of copying someone elses idea.
    if you told your best friend right now of your idea and he/she went and stole it, you would have no grounds for a lawsuit as there is no evidence of who came up with the idea first. if however you were to say put it on this forum, email it to yourself, get a justice of the peace (or your countries equivalent) to notorise a document with the date on it, and a few other possibilities, you have the basic grounds to prove at what time you came up with the idea, thus making it easier to sue if anyone looks on this website and discovers your idea and then tries to market it.
    all I am saying is you have given us so very little to work with. you could be designing the first interstellar communications array or a garage door opener. and I bet you can see that those 2 things will be vastly diffferent in time constraints.

    my advice is to get on any site that offers patenting help, talk to a justice of the peace, lawyer etc or just start googling your rights for ideas. patenting costs a boatload for something that may or may not find a market. copyrights have no down payment as such but you have to prove this idea is original.
  7. Craig4568


    Sep 7, 2012
    this is going of track i never said anything about patents what i wanted was some help getting pointed in the right direction to get it made not patentes not exorbitant costs someone that can say i'll build that for you .heres how much it will cost
  8. donkey


    Feb 26, 2011
    giving us more detail on what type of product and how long it takes is what the issue is.
    as everyone has said if this is a huge product then the setup costs could be much higher than you have estimated.
    in our members we have a great guy that actually makes electronics to order (and cute cars for his kids). we also have people with up to 30 years experience that could possibly do this. there are alot of companies that will do this as well. the problem is as with every job you need a quote and to give a quote people need information on what they are building.
    I could tell you I want a house, you might say ok 100,000 and I would not hire you cos i meant a dog house.
    the item you talk of is a combination of ready made items as you stated (or existing technology) so this could reduce the expense, but if the existing technology is for example a satellite, then the price goes up.
    google is your friend if you wish to go elsewhere, or giving just a rough idea of the project, be vague if you want to but if you give us something to work on then, we can get you started most likely
    as for being the wrong place you are not, you are in the right place, but we need some more information to get someone to see if they can support the initial overheads and then see if the amount you think will cover it is the amount they think will cover it. the spirit is here but with so much experience in this room not alot of people will take a gamble on a rough idea, with a very vague description.
  9. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

    Jan 21, 2010
    Craig, most technical people are very wary of a "Sales marketing and distribution" guy having a design idea that they need "a little help with" unless the same person is willing to fund it.

    It's a deep sticky hole that few people would want to approach.

    It would be a bit like me coming up to you and saying "I have this great new product. I'm sure you could market it with 5 minutes work -- and you'll fund all the advertising too, right?"

    You sent me a PM about your idea which I have not read because your original post said you need to acquire patents. I don't wish to play any part in jeopardising that for you.

    In any case, I'm not in a position to assist, and those active on these forums that could be have remained quiet.
  10. gorgon


    Jun 6, 2011
    I don't know what sort of budget you have in mind, but as mentioned a CE approval will probably be in the range £5000 - £15000, maybe more, depending on what you have to comply to.
    If you want to use and put together existing products, you may run into problems, if the manufacturer don't approve your use, or you need to do changes on it. You'll then have a problem getting the gizmo CE approved, due to lack of documentation.

    Personally I have my plate full for the next year, so I'm not eligible in this case. If not, I could have been interested, at least to look into it.

    TOK ;)
  11. CocaCola


    Apr 7, 2012
    Several red flags here for me, the super secret society is a big one... If it needs patents get the patents rolling, they take YEARS to process, so if you are going to use them for protection you have a multi-year window to wait... If you insist on patents, don't give the details of your project to anyone until you have at minimum filed the initial paperwork to secure the patents...

    A patent is only as good as the money you are willing to spend defending it, and that is a bitter sweet truth... Easily 90% of all patent battles revolve around million and billion dollar returns, it's simply not worth the effort to defend a patent that is only making you a few $100K a year, as it will cost you years worth of profits just to mount a defense... This is why the Asian markets ignore patents in many cases, they know it will cost you more to mount a defense and shut them down then you or them are making in profits... With that said if your product takes off and proves profitable, you can bet those Asian copy cats will be all over it...

    Also, I'm old and wise enough to not be funding other peoples dreams unless they can PROVE to me a viable return, and I TRUST their vision... All the while I still need a minimum cash flow in the intern, because sadly I need to make money to pay my bills and if I was working for free all day that would be real hard...

    I also know that donating my labor, a simply LED flasher can still cost me well over $1000 out of pocket to get a small prototype run done, and that is void of any certifications or fancy housing, that is just a small run of production ready populated PC boards... I have done this many times, the dreams of turning a quick buck vanish quickly... Have a few design changes and setbacks and the profit starts to run away as if you have the plague...

    A better question do you have $100K budgeted for a prototype? Maybe $50K?

    If you give more details that number can certainly come down, but you will need to spill the beans or else as donkey said, it's a complete shot in the dark...
  12. Craig4568


    Sep 7, 2012
    1Also, I'm old and wise enough to not be funding other peoples dreams

    2 also know that donating my labor,

    God how hard is this i was wise enough to post this on other forums So far 3 indian guys straight off the bat have asked me the right questions and have told me it can be done within the budget required, One these guys is running an electronic company specialising in design work and cant see many problems getting a protoype made and maybe setting up manufacturing in India for me

    All Ive had on here I why it CANT be done or how HARD its going to be or how EXPENSIVE its going to be

    I started my first Business when i was 21 it failed I picked my self back up i started again when I was 26 it never failed im now 44 I have the money I need i have 19 years successful business account banking behind me so if I need to borrow the bank should be ok with that
    I dont have to borrow anything as it happens

    I'm not expecting it to be a walk in the park but jeeze how negative can you lot be not one person has PM'ed me and asked what it is and the person i did send it to never read it because he didnt what to risk, jepordise my idea

    I'm trying to get a gadget made dont concern yourselves with the money I never came on here asking for money i asked if something could be MADE, CREATED, INVENTED let me worry about the money and the time and the patents

  13. donkey


    Feb 26, 2011
    I am not a moderator on this forum but I have spent a bit of time on here and have learnt a few things
    1 this is not a business site. It is a site for people learning about electronics or wanting help. NO ONE on here actively uses this site to make money, this is why we don't allow spamming and there are no ads.

    2 EVERYONE has the right to express an idea and everyone has a right to put their 2 cents in.

    you have given next to no information but you want help. this is not what this site is for. If you want someone to help you out approach the companies that are selling it.
    If you come to us and tell us what the technologies are and how to mix them to a desired effect then we WOULD help. we could even point out a possible flaw in the design in our OWN time. this site is mainly for hobbiests and uses a few people that have enough experience in their own companies and others to know how to help.

    you have approached a site for hobbiests whose grand schemes include a home made gps for cats, android controlled circuits etc and wanted us to help. thats fine we don't charge for opinions. We also don't make things commercially (with the exception of a few guys who I PM from time to time).
    this site is informative in nature, not a business.
    It is kind hearted people helping out fools like me.

    As you said you have been in businees for 19 years and know a fair bit, well research where you post my friend. going to a hobby site and asking us to help is great, but not giving us details is not the best idea. did you see the rest of the site and see that no business propositions have been brought forward? just a bunch of little hobbies asking for help?

    I am sure that the if you hit google up or ask us if we know of a compnay that might assist you with your endeavour you will assuredly get responses quickly.

    and the last thing I have to add to this is by yet another person not giving information required to get a full answer
  14. CocaCola


    Apr 7, 2012
    Good luck, seems like you found your guys, hope they work out and you realize your product...

    Because you FAILED to give any info...

    Riddle me this, how much would it cost me to build the house of my dreams?

    That is all the info you have given basically... If some guys from India feel they can give you honest answers and quotes with basically no information, good luck with that, been there and done that and wasn't foolish enough to toss the money away...

    Cool here is a quote, I'll charge $150/hr billed in 15 minute increments for all labor hours, it will take me as long as it takes to design and build the mystery prototype... There will be a $15K non refundable deposit required up front as an hourly rate guarantee, and to cover initial start up prototyping cost... Further deposits and guarantees will be assessed and billed when that retainer is depleted in approx 1 week... No part or portion of the project will be released to you until any and all outstanding balances are paid in full and up to date... I will retain ownership of all source files and design perimeters, and they will not be disclosed until the project is complete and the final payment in full has been paid, only at that time will ownership be released to you... You are on your own sourcing someone to do any required certifications or testing, and/or any patent or IP violations or licensing...

    Actually it's your 'keep it secret' attitude that is making it harder than in needs to be, spill the beans if you want real answers, if anyone giving you specific numbers and figures without having all the details is simply pulling your leg...
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  15. donkey


    Feb 26, 2011
    I don't know if this has been covered but this site is about getting 1 question and a heap of answers. that is the way the forum works. I ask for a simple LED blinker and people post links, give schematics, etc etc etc.
    what you are trying to do is the EXACT opposite of what this and most forums try to do. you are giving no information and getting up us when we state that very fact and have to ask you the 1000 questions just to find out that your project may have already been made by Joe Blow in south america who has patented it making the possibility of anyone here reproducing it on a commercial ground totally impossible.

    19 years in a good businees and you failed to research OUR site before posting. All good businesses make sure they don't waste time trying to get the painter to design their web page, or their gardners to fix their photocopiers. its called getting the right people for the right job. the worst part is you can't tell us what the job is so we can't even tell you if it is a garden variety task or something that simply needs a new coat of paint.
    precision questions get precision answers.... or directions on how to find those precision answers
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