help to calculate frequency of CD40106BC schmitt trigger square oscillator

george2525 · Sep 5, 2016

Hello

I am building a synthesiser that uses a basic schmitt trigger square wave oscillator

I have found some info that makes sense to me regarding calculating the frequency here:

http://electronics-course.com/schmitt-trigger-oscillator

which states f = 0.8/RC for the 741S14 model.

However im using a Texas CD40106 which has the following datasheet:
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd40106b-mil.pdf

I have read in a decent book that the oscillation frequency of the CD40106 is approx - 0.75/RC

I have used the same principles to calculate it as shown in the link above however I am unable to obtain anything close to 0.75/RC based on the datasheet values provided.

So... would anyone know how to calculate the oscillation frequency for this IC?

Perhaps I have chosen the wrong values from the datasheet but I have tried a few options

I assumed I would pick temperature at 25C and use the typical values

The datasheet seems to say that output is +10v and 0V if Vdd = 10v and Vcapacitor is between 3.9 and 5.9 volts which I assume means hysteresis should be 2V? however the datasheet states hysteresis at 2.3V! which confuses me...

anyway if anyone is prepared to help Ill explain what ive done further.

Thankyou!

Alec_t · Sep 5, 2016

For a 40106 the frequency will be ~ 1.5/RC if the IC is lightly loaded (i.e. has a feedback resistor which draws < about 1mA).
Bear in mind that datasheet values are "typical". Because of manufacturing tolerances no two ICs will have identical properties. The R and C values also have tolerances, so you shouldn't expect the frequency of your circuit to be exactly as per the formula.

george2525 · Sep 5, 2016

Alec_t said:

For a 40106 the frequency will be ~ 1.5/RC if the IC is lightly loaded (i.e. has a feedback resistor which draws < about 1mA).
Bear in mind that datasheet values are "typical". Because of manufacturing tolerances no two ICs will have identical properties. The R and C values also have tolerances, so you shouldn't expect the frequency of your circuit to be exactly as per the formula.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply

yes I have found it as 1.5/RC also

would you have any idea where the value 0.75/RC could have come from?

Thanks

BobK · Sep 5, 2016

I expect that you calculated only half the period. There are two halves (charge and discharge) and that would explain the factor of two in the frequency.

Bob

george2525 · Sep 5, 2016

BobK said:

I expect that you calculated only half the period. There are two halves (charge and discharge) and that would explain the factor of two in the frequency.

Bob
Click to expand...

hmm the 1.5/RC is one period but the 0.75/RC from the book is quoted in Hz so should also be one period. Also the above link with the 74LS14 is 0.8/RC which seems in line with the book statement. There seems to be a 1/2 missing but I cant see where from!

Alec_t · Sep 5, 2016

george2525 said:

would you have any idea where the value 0.75/RC could have come from?
Click to expand...

As Bob says. However, I got f=1.5/RC by running a simulation with LTspice and measuring the frequency.
The book figure was presumably for TTL logic, not CMOS logic. Frequency is a function of the hysteresis, which is quite different for the two logic technologies.

BobK · Sep 5, 2016

Show us your computation.

Bob

george2525 · Sep 5, 2016

BobK said:

Show us your computation.

Bob
Click to expand...

ok

ive been messing around with different Vdd's and using the following

which is stated in the datasheet for the Fairchild model

with Vdd = 10v I get fosc = 0.811/RC

and with Vdd = 5v I get fosc = 1.23/RC

I have since found this formula and its derivation and it makes sense to me. the 0.811 seems close to standard quotations.

I would like to ask - is it normal for Vdd to have such an effect on the frequency?

(A nice derivation can be found here)
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://electro-music.com/forum/phpb..._oscillator_with_diode_based_cv_input_905.pdf

george2525 · Sep 5, 2016

also I plan to use 9V for Vdd

is there a way to find Vt+ and Vt- without experimentation?

I will be experimenting anyway but would like to know

Alec_t · Sep 6, 2016

george2525 said:

is there a way to find Vt+ and Vt- without experimentation?
Click to expand...

The datasheet should tell you. For CMOS, Vt+ and Vt- are ratiometric with respect to Vdd. Vt+ is about 65% of Vdd and Vt- is about 35% of Vdd. Your mileage may vary. For TTL, Vt+ and Vt- are about 1.6V and 0.8V respectively.

george2525 · Sep 6, 2016

Alec_t said:

The datasheet should tell you. For CMOS, Vt+ and Vt- are ratiometric with respect to Vdd. Vt+ is about 55% of Vdd and Vt- is about 45% of Vdd. Your mileage may vary. For TTL, Vt+ and Vt- are about 1.6V and 0.8V respectively.
Click to expand...

ok but order to generate accurate frequencies I will just have to take a specific schmitt trigger and somehow determine its Vt+ and Vt- right? sorry if that seems obvious but just in case I missed a trick

BobK · Sep 6, 2016

george2525 said:

ok but order to generate accurate frequencies I will just have to take a specific schmitt trigger and somehow determine its Vt+ and Vt- right? sorry if that seems obvious but just in case I missed a trick
Click to expand...

In order to get accurate frequencies you will have to use a potentiometer for part of the resistance and tune each oscillator. The only way to get accurate frequencies without tuning is to use a crystal.

Bob

george2525 · Sep 6, 2016

BobK said:

In order to get accurate frequencies you will have to use a potentiometer for part of the resistance and tune each oscillator. The only way to get accurate frequencies without tuning is to use a crystal.

Bob
Click to expand...

OK yes sounds like the best idea. Ill use a trimmer. thanks

Alec_t · Sep 6, 2016

For a non-crystal CMOS oscillator the frequency will drift to some extent with temperature and with supply voltage, which is not ideal for some applications.

AnalogKid · Sep 6, 2016

1. From post #1, 3.9 V and 5.9 V are not symmetrical about Vdd/2. 3.9 V and 6.1 V are, for a delta-V of 2.2 V, much closer to your original information.

2. Internally, the transition voltages hve both a fixed and a ratiometric component. This is why their overall percentages shift as Vdd changes.

3. The P-channel transistors in CMOS parts are not as "good" as the N-channel transistors, so the driving point impedance for the feedback resistor is not symmetrical. For a large resistor it is a small error term, but a good example of how complex the calculation can get when you try to get it to be really accurate.

ak

george2525 · Sep 6, 2016

AnalogKid said:

1. From post #1, 3.9 V and 5.9 V are not symmetrical about Vdd/2. 3.9 V and 6.1 V are, for a delta-V of 2.2 V, much closer to your original information.

2. Internally, the transition voltages hve both a fixed and a ratiometric component. This is why their overall percentages shift as Vdd changes.

3. The P-channel transistors in CMOS parts are not as "good" as the N-channel transistors, so the driving point impedance for the feedback resistor is not symmetrical. For a large resistor it is a small error term, but a good example of how complex the calculation can get when you try to get it to be really accurate.

ak
Click to expand...

ok so why would the data sheet not quote those figures? I see your point but I would expect the datasheet to cover this. Interestingly for non-Texas models I think I have seen figures like yours. datasheets can be irritating

help to calculate frequency of CD40106BC schmitt trigger square oscillator

george2525

Alec_t

george2525

BobK

george2525

Alec_t

BobK

george2525

george2525

Alec_t

george2525

BobK

george2525

Alec_t

AnalogKid

george2525

Schmitt trigger relaxation oscillator

Schmitt Trigger

schmitt trigger

Schmitt Trigger

Schmitt Oscillator

74HC14 Schmitt Trigger

Adjustable Schmitt Trigger Circuit Help

100MHz Schmitt Oscillator