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Help needed for simple robot control circuit

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by PeterMacKenzie, Dec 4, 2005.

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  1. I'm working on the circutry for a fairly simple robot, and I think I've
    figured out most of it, but there's one bit that I can't figure out how
    to impliment. I've made a .gif of the circuit plan below with the area
    I'm having problems with marked off (sorry for it being a bit crappy; I
    was using openoffice draw, which isn't great for circuits).

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/PeterMackenzie/Robot0002.gif

    The issue is that I need to (I think) be able to use a signal from an
    OR gate to switch between ground and vcc to select between only NPN
    transistors passing current and only PNP transistors passing current.
    I'm stumped at how to impliment a 2-way switch without resorting to a
    relay (I don't have a relay, it would consume more power than I'd be
    happy with and I'm sure there's a solution without one).

    Also, I'd be grateful if anyone could look over the circuit and point
    out any other problems with it; I pretty much doubled my understanding
    of transistors (and burned out a few LED's) while designing it (the
    book said the base passed a *little* current, nothing about it only
    doing that with a big resistor in the way) and I'm pretty fuzzy when it
    comes to logic components, so there's probably something glaring wrong
    with it that I haven't noticed. There's no resistors drawn in yet, but
    there will be when it's finished, in case you're wondering if that's
    one of the glaring errors.

    --------------------------
    Overview of robot:

    The robot is to have 2 motors with wheels for locomotion and 2 feelers
    which detect collisions with objects and either cut power to one motor
    and reverse the other to turn the robot away from the object if only
    one feeler is affected, or reverse both motors to back up the robot if
    both feelers are affected together.

    Overview of circuit:

    The feelers are functionally push-to-make switches. They quickly
    charge a capacitor when closed and send a signal to the motor-control
    part of the
    circuit. After the push-to-make switches open again,
    the capacitor discharges, thus maintaining the signal for an arbitrary
    duration (1-3 seconds probably would be most desirable).

    In the motor-control section, this signal has three destinations. The
    first is a transistor which opens the connection for the motor nearest
    that feeler to vcc, turning it off.

    The second is an OR gate which is connected to both feeler units.
    When either unit gives a signal, the gate switches between grounding
    or supplying vcc (via a mechanism I haven't figured out yet) to an
    array of 4 transistors, 2 being PNP, 2 being
    NPN, the function of which is to reroute the direction of current in
    the opposite direction through the motors. When vcc is connected, the
    NPN transistors are active (and the PNP inactive) and current
    direction is normal, but when ground is connected, the PNP transistors
    are active (and NPN inactive) and the direction of current is
    reversed.

    The third destination is an AND gate, which is likewise connected to
    both feeler units. If it's active, it overrides the transistor in the
    first step by providing an alternative route through a secondary
    transistor for each motor to keep them active (though also in reverse,
    since the direction of current has been reversed in step 2).
     
  2. Don Bruder

    Don Bruder Guest

    <snip>

    The "magic word" you're looking for is "H-Bridge".

    I didn't get any further than this point before hitting "reply", but
    with the context so far, I'm betting you're looking to have one or more
    DC motors spinning one way when the output of the OR gate is true, and
    "the other way" when the output is false?

    <finishes reading>

    Sure enough, that's EXACTLY what you're looking for - An H-Bridge
    (Google for it) will do what you're needing.
     
  3. Rich Webb

    Rich Webb Guest

    Go get the gEDA package. The schematic capture app, gschem, works great.
    http://www.geda.seul.org/


    The easiest solution is probably to drop in a dedicated H-bridge chip,
    unless you're really interested in doing a roll-yer-own effort.

    http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/robotics/tutorial/h-bridge/ has a good
    tutorial on discrete BJT H-bridges, if you're going that way.

    For off the shelf, look at http://www.allegromicro.com/ or perhaps the
    SN754410 from TI http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/slrs007b/slrs007b.pdf
     
  4. Bob Monsen

    Bob Monsen Guest

    On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 08:08:21 -0800, PeterMacKenzie wrote:
    <robot woes>

    There are specialized chips to deal with this problem. If you aren't
    making robosaurus, a TI SN754410 is probably what you want. For bigger
    projects, you can use discrete transistors; if you go this way, don't use
    BJTs, use MOSFETS, since the drive required for motors will be easier to
    deal with by logic gates.

    If you look around at the various distributors, the prices for these
    things vary wildly, so I'd shop around.

    ---
    Regards,
    Bob Monsen

    God ever arithmetizes.
    - Gustav Jacob Jacobi
     
  5. Thanks for the replies, but they haven't really resolved the problem.
    I hadn't heard of an H-bridge before, and I read through the tutorial
    from http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/robotics/tutorial/h-bridge/ that
    Rich Webb linked to, but if you check the schematic in the .gif,
    you'll see that I'd already designed a rudimentary H-bridge (it may
    not look terribly familiar since it controls 2 motors instead of 1,
    lacks protection diodes, has the motors external to the 4-transistor
    ring and doesn't have any resistors drawn in, but it seems to me to be
    the essence of what an H-bridge should be).

    In the linked tutorial, the H-bridge is controlled by a Basic Stamp II
    microcontroller and, according to the tutorial; "This works because
    the processor pins become a connection to ground when they are
    outputting a logic 0. ". With my circuit though, a logic component as
    far as I know would never be able to supply a connection to ground as
    logic 0, logic 0 would merely be an absence of current, an open
    connection, not a path to ground. I'm fairly confident that I could
    get my custom H-bridge to work, with some modifications (the linked
    tutorial was very useful, and I was able to calculate that I'll need
    at least 4 of my little TO-92, 200mW transistors in parallel for each
    of the '4' transistors in the H-bridge to handle the 500mA or so that
    each motor will draw (200/0.7=286mA per small 200mW transistor), but
    I'd rather stick with BJT's for now, since I want to get a feel for
    the lowest level logic involved, there's something more satisfying
    about it to me and I have 200 of them to use up.

    While I was typing this though, I think I figured out how to do what I
    wanted. Using 2 NPNs, 1 PNP and a couple of high-value resistors, I
    designed the switch I was after so that I could switch between +5Vcc
    and ground rather than just +5Vcc and 0V. It's 04:28 here, so my
    brain's kind of fried and I could just be imagining I've solved it by
    now, but if it still makes sense to me in the morning, I'll make
    another .gif of it and post it here. It looked pretty obvious once
    I'd done it, so hopefully that's a good sign.

    Thanks to Rich Webb again for the link to gEDA, the electronics design
    package. Unfortunately I'm just learning to use linux at the moment,
    and haven't yet figured out how to compile packages from source (which
    I'd need to do since I run mandrake 10.0). I'll keep it in mind for
    when know how to install it.
     
  6. Jasen Betts

    Jasen Betts Guest

    it's not immediately obvious which transistors are PNP and which NPN
    (possibly due to the image resolution)

    anyway it appears that you are switching the supply to the transistors that
    switch the motors on or off.

    this is most unusual - and I'm not sure that it will work.

    google for "H-bridge" and use one to drive each motor.

    I think the device your original question was searchiing for is an inverter,
    (or "not" gate) these convert a "high" input to a "low" output and vice-versa.

    Bye.
    Jasen
     
  7. Jasen Betts

    Jasen Betts Guest

    yeah, I noticed that...
    it depends on which logic family your and and or-gates are from,
    most will pproduce a pertty good path to ground when in the low state
    (the exception being PMOS which isn't real common)
    you probably could, the bit with two transistors from the motor to the
    h-bridge output looks unusual... but it may work...
    you should probably get some larger transistors instead of paralling them.
    junction devices don't always balance well, and with your low voltage
    supply adding series resistors to balance them could may wast too much of
    the voltage.

    also using 8 500Mw transistors you could build two h-bridges.

    oh... that's what you wanted, .


    many chips come wired that way, it's called a totem-pole output


    in TTL chips it's implemented something like this:

    totem-pole output stage (from memory)

    -----+---------+----- +5
    | |
    | 50R
    5K |
    | /
    | |/
    |------|
    | |\|
    in / ~\
    |/ |
    --| +----- out
    |\| |
    ~\ |
    | /
    | |/
    `------|
    |\|
    ~\
    |
    ---------------+------ 0V


    Bye.
    Jasen
     
  8. Here's a .gif of the H-bridge that was embedded in my circuit; I
    stripped off everything around it to simplify it and rearranged it a
    bit to make it look more like a traditional H-bridge, plus enlarged it
    so it's obvious which transistors are NPN and which are PNP.

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/PeterMackenzie/Technical/H-bridgesimplified.gif

    I also drew the transistor swich I came up with, modified somewhat
    since it's conception last night/this morning.

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/PeterMackenzie/Technical/Vcc_Groundswitch.gif

    Jasen: "I think the device your original question was searchiing for is
    an inverter,
    (or "not" gate) these convert a "high" input to a "low" output and
    vice-versa."

    It took me a while, but I finally figured out how I could use
    inverters. I'd been confused with combining inverters with an NPN/PNP
    mix, but once I considered just inverters and NPNs the solution was
    obvious, and is presented (in simplified form) in the next .gif. It's
    simpler than the solution I developed for the NPN/PNP H-bridge, so I'll
    be using the inverter solution instead, but it's nice I at least got a
    +Vcc/ground switch out of my confusion.

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/PeterMackenzie/Technical/h-bridgesimplified_inverters.gif

    Thanks to everyone for their help.
     
  9. Bob Monsen

    Bob Monsen Guest

    There are various subtle issues with regards to H-Bridges. For example,
    having a short delay between turning one side off and turning the other
    side on is good, because otherwise you will have a huge current zoom
    through the two momentarily connected transistors.

    Also, it is often advantageous to run the motors at a higher voltage than
    the logic drivers. Your circuit, while nice, won't allow this.

    Finally, as you may know, when you reverse a motor (or even shut it off),
    the inductance and mechanical inertia can cause a big voltage spike, which
    is often deadly to controlling logic.

    These problems are usually dealt with by using an integrated solution. The
    H-Bridge I mentioned upthread deals with all of this (well, you will need
    protection diodes of course), and allows up to an amp of drive current...
    You can have split supplies, and run the motors at 12V, while running
    the logic at 5V so you can use a microcontroller to drive it directly. It
    has the 'inverter' logic built in, so when you turn on one side, it turns
    off the other for you after a short delay.

    Even if you don't buy it, I'd look up the datasheet and look at the
    port schematics and protection schemes to get some ideas. Here is the TI
    page: <http://tinyurl.com/8f7wn>.

    --
    Regards,
    Bob Monsen

    Man, as a social animal, can no more escape government than the
    individual can escape bondage to his bowels."
     
  10. Jasen Betts

    Jasen Betts Guest

    the right side has a current path from the top transistors emitter to its base
    then into the base of the bottom transistor... the transistorw will just
    burn up.

    Also pushing the base much past the collector voltage will destroy a
    transistor. a resistor in series with the base will protect against this.

    The left side is possibly workable, but the transistors might not turn all
    the way on and in that state they are inefficient and heat up.
    you have the right hand transistor upside down.

    your diagrams are hard to read, it's traditional to put the positive supply
    At the top and ground below. input on the left and output on the right.

    redrawing your circuit (and flipping the backwards transistor)

    ------------------------+---+-------- +5V
    | |
    | |
    | |
    / |
    | / |
    |/ |
    +--| |
    | |\ 68K
    | | \| |
    | ~\ |
    | | |
    +------+---+--[500R]--- out
    | |
    / |
    in | / |
    |/ |
    --[68R]-+---| |
    | |\ 1MK
    iM | \| |
    | ~\ |
    | | |
    ----------+-------+------+-------------0V


    that's not going to work. the top transistor will never turn on

    this one shows promise (but the transistors on the right are upside-
    down again )

    you'll need base resistors on the bottom transistors too,
    and the top onse probably won't turn all the way on...

    (if the diagram looks crooked paste it into notepad or configure your news
    client to use a fixed-pitch font (eg courier))

    ------------+------------+-------- +5V
    | |
    +-------)------------)--[160R]--+
    | | | |
    +--)-------}--[160R]----)------+ |
    | | | | | |
    | | | | | |
    | | / \ | |
    | | |!/ \|| | |
    | | |/~ ~\| | |
    | +---| |--+ |
    | |\ /| |
    / | \ / | \
    | / \ / \ |
    A |/ | + | \| B
    --[2K2]-+---| +----(M)-----+ |---+-[2K2]--
    | |\ | | /| |
    | | \| / \ |/ | |
    | ~\ | / \ | /~ |
    | | |/ \| | |
    +-[10K]-+------| |------+-[10K]-+
    |\ /|
    | \| |/ |
    ~\ /~
    | |
    ------------+------------+-------- 0V


    here there's two inputs A and B. putting either of them high will start the
    motor (opposite directions each)
    putting both high would turn all the transistors on and short
    circuit the power supply. (so don't)

    Bye.
    Jasen
     
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