HELP: halogen vs energy-saving light bulb.... woes :S

[Palindr☻me]

Just mentioning those as ideas.

If it were me in that situation, I think I would have left things as
they were but use them sparingly - maybe taking out a few lamps, rather
than complete fittings. Wires dangling fron ceilings upsets people.

Me, too.

But then, I quite like table lamps. Nothing quite like the sight and
sound of a clear-glass paraffin (kerosene?) mantle lamp or two, a good
fire in the fireplace and a big thick rug in front of the fire... sorry,
mind is wandering..

I've seen paraffin lamps (liquid paraffin), and kerosene lamps, but I
haven't seen either of those fuels used in a lamp with a mantle - only
gas (like propane) and the Coleman white-gas[oline] camping lanterns,
which are painfully bright, and uncomfortably hot.

How would you use paraffin or kerosene in a mantle lamp?

Try google on "Tilley Lamp".

BTW, the difference as I know it is that "pure" paraffin burns cleanly,
with a smokeless flame, exactly like a candle, but a kerosene flame,
if it's not sooty, it's still ugly yellow and it stinks. I think you
need some kind of forced air to get kerosene to burn "clean".

IIUC what in the UK is called paraffin is called kerosene in the USA.
BICBW..

The lamps I like run on British paraffin, have a glass fuel tank, can be
adjusted to anything from a bright,white light to a much more gentle glow.

 

[default]

I've seen paraffin lamps (liquid paraffin), and kerosene lamps, but I
haven't seen either of those fuels used in a lamp with a mantle - only
gas (like propane) and the Coleman white-gas[oline] camping lanterns,
which are painfully bright, and uncomfortably hot.

You don't get around much. They are sold in the US (and most of the
world) under the name of Aladdin Lamps. In continuous production for
~99 years. No pressurized fuel tank just a circular wick with a lot
of air passages in the brass gallery. Chimney is long and elegant
looking (and required to draw enough air through). Flame burns blue
or nearly so. No noise. Can be adjusted from about the equivalent of
7 watts to 75+ watts incandescent. Color is broad spectrum warm
white.

I have and use a couple of them. In addition to light they put out
about 2,000 BTU's of heat and probably go about 6-8 hours on a quart
of kerosene.

Likewise there are mil spec "all fuel" pressure mantle lamps made
similar to Coleman lamps that will run on kerosene, etc..

http://www.firelight.com/oil_lamps.html some history on oil lamps
with pictures of an Aladdin Lamp

 

[operator jay]

It is labelled as a toroidal transformer. The manufacturer's data sheet
describes it as a toroidal tranformer.

It does, however, not behave like a conventional transformer. The output
voltage rises near enough linearly with the supply voltage, but at 11.4v
rms out (215 v in) the rate of increase slows and the output is still
below 12v at 260v input (my variac won't go higher).

The "light" end gets warm - and gets hot quite quickly if left on 260v.

I will stick it on a scope tomorrow and see what the output waveform
looks like.

Shame it is encapsulated.

If you are able to scope the line side current, that may tell you whether
there is saturation. Kinda sounds like it.

j

 

[James Sweet]

I've seen paraffin lamps (liquid paraffin), and kerosene lamps, but I
haven't seen either of those fuels used in a lamp with a mantle - only
gas (like propane) and the Coleman white-gas[oline] camping lanterns,
which are painfully bright, and uncomfortably hot.

How would you use paraffin or kerosene in a mantle lamp?

Now that you mention it, we had one of those when I was a kid, actually
two of them, there was one on our sailboat that hung over the table. If
I recall right, they had a tubular wick inside the mantle, really did
produce a lot of light.

 

[Salmon Egg]

Just mentioning those as ideas.

If it were me in that situation, I think I would have left things as
they were but use them sparingly - maybe taking out a few lamps, rather
than complete fittings. Wires dangling fron ceilings upsets people.

Me, too.

But then, I quite like table lamps. Nothing quite like the sight and
sound of a clear-glass paraffin (kerosene?) mantle lamp or two, a good
fire in the fireplace and a big thick rug in front of the fire... sorry,
mind is wandering..

I've seen paraffin lamps (liquid paraffin), and kerosene lamps, but I
haven't seen either of those fuels used in a lamp with a mantle - only
gas (like propane) and the Coleman white-gas[oline] camping lanterns,
which are painfully bright, and uncomfortably hot.

How would you use paraffin or kerosene in a mantle lamp?

Try google on "Tilley Lamp".

BTW, the difference as I know it is that "pure" paraffin burns cleanly,
with a smokeless flame, exactly like a candle, but a kerosene flame,
if it's not sooty, it's still ugly yellow and it stinks. I think you
need some kind of forced air to get kerosene to burn "clean".

IIUC what in the UK is called paraffin is called kerosene in the USA.
BICBW..

The lamps I like run on British paraffin, have a glass fuel tank, can be
adjusted to anything from a bright,white light to a much more gentle glow.

If the most popular theory of how mantles work is correct, all you need is a
hot low emissivity flame to heat the mantle. Depositing soot onto the mantle
would ruin the performance. You want to use the selective emissivity of the
mantle everywhere in the spectrum except where visible light will be
emitted. That allows the mantle to reach a high temperature.

Mantles used to use very white thorium oxide doped with cerium oxide for
(visible) emissivity. Because of what I think is an unreasonable fear of
radioactivity, the thorium has been replaced with yttrium in modern mantles.
The thorium and yttrium oxides have similar optical properties and can
withstand the high temperatures.

Bill

-- Ferme le Bush

 

[Sjouke Burry]

If you are able to scope the line side current, that may tell you whether
there is saturation. Kinda sounds like it.

j

I think that you just described driving a transformer into
saturation. You can check that by measuring the input current,
which will jump to very high values as you pass the voltage
above which it goes into saturation. In that region it
will become very quickly very hot.

 

[Ross Herbert]

Yep, it's possible.

Here in the UK, these multi-light single halogen fittings are becoming
enormously popular, and most of them use a single iron cored transfomer. I
thought my advice might be of interest in general to anyone with these
lights.

Dave

Australia is similar to the UK. Only large installations will use a
common transformer for halogens/luminaires. Most domestic
installations are installed as 1 transformer per luminaire.

This paper gives brief details of electronic and magnetic transformers
for halogens/luminaires.

http://www.tridonicatco.com.au/MEDIEN/CAT0304_AU/TRANS.PDF

 

[Palindr☻me]

Australia is similar to the UK. Only large installations will use a
common transformer for halogens/luminaires. Most domestic
installations are installed as 1 transformer per luminaire.

This paper gives brief details of electronic and magnetic transformers
for halogens/luminaires.

http://www.tridonicatco.com.au/MEDIEN/CAT0304_AU/TRANS.PDF

Excellent! I had looked for something like this but only found
individual data sheets (in German..).


The conventional transformer sections mention that they should only be
used with the rated lamp load - as posters have remarked.

Individual specs for them then go on to give a range of acceptable loads
- eg 20-100% for the 180-1200VA OGT transformers.


ISTM that, where individual luminaires/light fittings have a supplied or
inbuilt transformer this may be designed with a much worse regulation
than a transformer designed for use with multiple individual
(unspecified) light fittings.


BTW, my tests on my "toroidal" lighting transformer showed that the
output waveform became distorted on light loads and over supply voltage,
having the peaks flattened in both cases. I haven't done supply current
yet - I know I have a suitable current trasnformer somewhere, but it may
be in the attic...

 

[KevinGPO]

Please take a look at these photographs of my halogen light bulbs. The
only thing written on them are 12V 50W and some brand name. Please can
someone help me identify the proper code name for them. Thanks!


http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.13.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.15.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.16.jpg

 

[James]

This is only a guess. They look like Halogen Par 16 bulbs. You might
Google that to see if you get a match.


Again, this is only a guess. I am close if the width of this bulb is
about 2 inches.


--James--

 

[James]

Oops, they may be hologen mr-16 bulbs.

Look at this link

http://www.unitedhalogenbulb.com/


--James--

 

[KevinGPO]

Now that we have identified that my bulbs are MR-16:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.13.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.15.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.16.jpg

Can you advise me on the lowest-energy / energy-saving-light-bulb-like
bulbs that I can purchase for the socket type that I have. Or are the
bulbs am using the cheapest/lowest-energy I can use?

I prefer using the energy-saving light bulbs (11W, etc.) Bayonet B22 or
ES base fitting. Is it possible getting a convertor from the current
sockets I have, or do I have to get an electrician to replace the
sockets?

Best regards

 

[Dave D]

Now that we have identified that my bulbs are MR-16:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.13.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.15.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.16.jpg

Can you advise me on the lowest-energy / energy-saving-light-bulb-like
bulbs that I can purchase for the socket type that I have. Or are the
bulbs am using the cheapest/lowest-energy I can use?

I prefer using the energy-saving light bulbs (11W, etc.) Bayonet B22 or
ES base fitting. Is it possible getting a convertor from the current
sockets I have, or do I have to get an electrician to replace the
sockets?

These are low voltage halogens, probably 12V. You'll have to get the
fittings replaced, and if they use a remote transformer there'll be some
rewiring needed as well. There's no way you'll be able to fit low energy
compact flourescents in these fittings.

Dave

 

[Fads]

Please take a look at these photographs of my halogen light bulbs. The
only thing written on them are 12V 50W and some brand name. Please can
someone help me identify the proper code name for them. Thanks!


http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.13.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.15.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.16.jpg

http://www.firstlightdirect.com/pp/...rd_Dichroic_Lamps_12_Volt_Lamp_GU5.3_Cap.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/753x4

not a bad price too.

Like other posters have said you will not be able to fit energy saving lamps
in your fittings.

 

[Palindr☻me]

http://www.firstlightdirect.com/pp/...rd_Dichroic_Lamps_12_Volt_Lamp_GU5.3_Cap.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/753x4

not a bad price too.

Like other posters have said you will not be able to fit energy saving lamps
in your fittings.

Of course, if you turn it into 12v dc, there are a lot of options,
including many energy savings ones:

http://www.12volt.com.au/General Htmls/webcat2003/lights.html

 

[GregS]

These are low voltage halogens, probably 12V. You'll have to get the
fittings replaced, and if they use a remote transformer there'll be some
rewiring needed as well. There's no way you'll be able to fit low energy
compact flourescents in these fittings.

Dave

I used to be conservative at my old house using as little electricity as possible.
I now moved to a house with an electric water heater and electric dryer, and my bills are half what
they used to be. I now try to find ways to use electricity!

greg

 

[James Sweet]

Now that we have identified that my bulbs are MR-16:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.13.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.15.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/kevingpo/nukedownloads/P01-09-06_20.16.jpg

Can you advise me on the lowest-energy / energy-saving-light-bulb-like
bulbs that I can purchase for the socket type that I have. Or are the
bulbs am using the cheapest/lowest-energy I can use?

I prefer using the energy-saving light bulbs (11W, etc.) Bayonet B22 or
ES base fitting. Is it possible getting a convertor from the current
sockets I have, or do I have to get an electrician to replace the
sockets?

Those are 12V halogen lamps, you'll have to replace the entire fixtures
to put something else in there, aside from some very expensive LED
retrofits I've seen which aren't as bright as the halogens, have rather
ugly color properties, and would never pay for themselves in savings. If
you have to have an electrician replace the fixtures rather than doing
it yourself I'd be shocked if that ever came close to paying for itself
either.

 

[James Sweet]

I used to be conservative at my old house using as little electricity as possible.
I now moved to a house with an electric water heater and electric dryer, and my bills are half what
they used to be. I now try to find ways to use electricity!

greg

Hot tub and electric heat pump will do that for you, my last bill was
for over 2,000 KWH, though that's still less money than my old gas
furnace was costing me.

 

[Edward Reid]

I've seen paraffin lamps (liquid paraffin), and kerosene lamps, but I
haven't seen either of those fuels used in a lamp with a mantle - only
gas (like propane) and the Coleman white-gas[oline] camping lanterns,

Believe. They are best known in the US under the Aladdin brand:

http://aladdinlamps.com

also good pictures and description at

http://waltonfeed.com/aladin.html

Yes, they work. My wife and I used quite a few of them for a couple of
years about thirty years ago, when we were building a house and living in
it and didn't have it ready for electricity. They are more persnickety than
gasoline or propane mantle lamps, and more likely to burn dirty and soot up
the chimney. Of course, they put out a lot of heat. OTOH, they are
certainly safer than gasoline lamps -- a leak in a gasoline lamp is an
invitation to a disaster, whereas a leak in a kerosene lamp is an
inconvenience. And Aladdin makes some beautiful models, if you want them
for decoration as well as light.

The only issue is lighting, as it takes more work to make enough of the
kerosene burn to get the mantle hot, but once it's hot the kerosene
vaporizes and acts pretty much like gasoline. (A similar principle applies
the the MSR camp stoves which can burn kerosene -- harder to get started,
but once it's hot enough to vaporize the kerosene it can work well.)

Edward