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Grounding PCBs

S

s_boro

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi There,

Just wondering why in alot of pcb design guides they suggest separating
the digital and analog circuity (i.e. grounding and supplies) and at
the same time have a commmon reference point somewhere in the circuit
(i.e. join analog ground to digital ground), I realise that the fast
digital switching could induce noise on some sensitive analog
components and separation is nesscesary but why then join both grounds
at one point? also as a separate but poss related question what is
meant by the term grond loops in pcbs and why avoid them?

Thanks and regards,

S_Boro
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi There,

Just wondering why in alot of pcb design guides they suggest separating
the digital and analog circuity (i.e. grounding and supplies) and at
the same time have a commmon reference point somewhere in the circuit
(i.e. join analog ground to digital ground), I realise that the fast
digital switching could induce noise on some sensitive analog
components and separation is nesscesary but why then join both grounds
at one point? also as a separate but poss related question what is
meant by the term grond loops in pcbs and why avoid them?

Thanks and regards,

S_Boro

Our policy, almost all the time, is

Use one pcb ground plane

Bolt the above to the chassis, connector shells, heatsinks,
etc as many places as practical.

Large currents flowing in the ground plane/chassis structure can
induce small voltage drops in the sheet resistance of the ground plane
("ground loops"), so the plane may not be truly equipotential. Be
aware of that and take suitable measures.

That's it.

John
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello John,
Our policy, almost all the time, is

Use one pcb ground plane

Bolt the above to the chassis, connector shells, heatsinks,
etc as many places as practical.

Large currents flowing in the ground plane/chassis structure can
induce small voltage drops in the sheet resistance of the ground plane
("ground loops"), so the plane may not be truly equipotential. Be
aware of that and take suitable measures.

That's it.

I'll second that.

Where there are conductive connections from PCB to chassis make sure
that there isn't a huge potential discrepancy between metals, to prevent
this link from deteriorating over time. Nickel plating is one method but
at the end of the day much of this is guided by current environmental
regulations.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
s_boro said:
Hi There,

Just wondering why in alot of pcb design guides they suggest separating
the digital and analog circuity (i.e. grounding and supplies) and at
the same time have a commmon reference point somewhere in the circuit
(i.e. join analog ground to digital ground), I realise that the fast
digital switching could induce noise on some sensitive analog
components and separation is nesscesary but why then join both grounds
at one point? also as a separate but poss related question what is
meant by the term grond loops in pcbs and why avoid them?

Thanks and regards,

S_Boro

On a PCB, ground performs at least 3 functions. It is a power supply
distribution path, a reference voltage and a shield.

If an analog function treats it as a precision reference voltage, then
currents passing through that ground from supply distribution, cause
resistive drops, and changing currents from digital logic loads also
produce inductive drops. The split ground, single point connection
method is an attempt to keep the distribution drops separate from the
reference voltage. I often pick one point on the supply distribution
ground plane or grid and assign this point as the analog reference
ground, connecting it to each function that needs to agree on what
exact zero is, by branching traces from that point. Since these
reference lines carry almost no current, they don't need pours. If a
very sensitive analog function needs quiet shielding, I isolate that
part of the distribution plane (or place an island in a layer above
it) and tie that shield back to the reference point with one of those
branches. But non reference power nodes still connect to the supply
distribution layer, to keep current out of shields and reference lines.

If you keep in mind these 3 separate ground functions, you can usually
come up with a layout that satisfies all 3, with few compromises.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fourth - PC ground plane is also a signal path which is why
bypass capacitors are distributed throughout the PC board -
often closest to ICs power and ground pins. Impedance
matching for signals explains why 0.01 uf bypass capacitors
are often better than 0.1 uf.
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
s_boro said:
Hi There,

Just wondering why in alot of pcb design guides they suggest separating
the digital and analog circuity (i.e. grounding and supplies) and at
the same time have a commmon reference point somewhere in the circuit
(i.e. join analog ground to digital ground),

Well.... the two have to have a common potential *somewhere* !
I realise that the fast
digital switching could induce noise on some sensitive analog
components and separation is nesscesary

Actually it's not fast edges IME.

If the digital ground current flows in the analog ground there will be a
small potential due to the resistance of the pcb trace that will enter the
analogue signal.

The current is typically connstantly changing so you get 'noise' or tones.

In audio applications you can 'hear the cpu' or whatever. Check out a cheap
mobo with integrated sound for example.
but why then join both grounds
at one point?

See above. It's better than joining them at the psu btw.
also as a separate but poss related question what is
meant by the term grond loops in pcbs and why avoid them?

Never seen a ground loop in a pcb as such.

A ground loop normally refers to a situation where 2 grounded pices of
equipment are connected and a ground current flows in the interconnect due
to the 'wall socket' ground potentials being unequal.

Graham
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fourth - PC ground plane is also a signal path which is why
bypass capacitors are distributed throughout the PC board -
often closest to ICs power and ground pins. Impedance
matching for signals explains why 0.01 uf bypass capacitors
are often better than 0.1 uf.

I always use 0.33 uF bypass caps. That's about the biggest 0603 that's
still cheap.

John
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello John,
I always use 0.33 uF bypass caps. That's about the biggest 0603 that's
still cheap.

As long as it's not made from some boutique ceramic. Remember when all
the high density caps suddenly became unobtanium in the 80's? IIRC this
was caused by an accident at the only chemical plant that seemed to make
the needed ceramic. Lots of Aspirin was consumed in them days.

I usually go for 0.1uF since even the contract assemblers in remote
locations will have oodles of them. I never really found a huge
difference in RF performance WRT to the smaller sizes, at least not for
bypassing.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
w_tom said:
Fourth - PC ground plane is also a signal path which is why
bypass capacitors are distributed throughout the PC board -
often closest to ICs power and ground pins. Impedance
matching for signals explains why 0.01 uf bypass capacitors
are often better than 0.1 uf.

Excellent addition to my list. This is especially important if some
load uses high current, fast edged pulses. Many a beginner has been
nailed by using the ground plane as a return to the driver (past
sensitive circuits), forgetting that all that (di/dt) is going to
create quite a ripple in the ground pond when it comes splashing
through. I always try to return the ground side of such loads with a
separate trace (right along side, or on on both sides of the outgoing
trace), back to the point where the driver is bypassed, so almost all
that noise stays out of my ground plane.
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I always use 0.33 uF bypass caps. That's about the biggest 0603 that's
still cheap.

I still prefer the 0805 .1uf X7R type. I have had bad luck with
anything in a Y5V or Z5U. My stuff hasn't been so miniaturized that
using devices smaller than 0805 makes much difference. And the hand
rework and modification on small runs is so much easier.
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi There,

Just wondering why in alot of pcb design guides they suggest separating
the digital and analog circuity

Chip makers who make ADCs etc usually specify that the digital ground and
analog ground connect only under the chip. This is often impractical to
do.
(i.e. grounding and supplies) and at
the same time have a commmon reference point somewhere in the circuit
(i.e. join analog ground to digital ground), I realise that the fast
digital switching could induce noise on some sensitive analog
components and separation is nesscesary but why then join both grounds
at one point?

Most things with digital and analog circuits also contain ADCs and DACs.
Neither of these work well if there is a difference between their digital
and analog grounds.

also as a separate but poss related question what is
meant by the term grond loops in pcbs and why avoid them?

These days, it is common to have digital stuff, some analog stuff and some
sort of power supply all on one PCB.

The digital area almost always determines the number of layers in the PCB
and that number is greater than the analog of power supply sections need.
You can take advantage of this.

In the digital section the Ground and Vcc layers work as AC ground planes.
They naturally form a capacitor. The bypass capacitors add to the
coupling between them. If the analog section is going to be run from the
same Vcc, it is a good idea to put some impedance in the way to keep the
digital sections currents out of the analog sections supply. If you can
prevent the current in the Vcc, you've mostly prevented it in the ground
plane.

In the analog section, you should use the extra layers to make things that
are AC ground for the analog. If the analog doesn't run on the digital's
Vcc, take that layer over as an analog supply.

If the analog section is processing lowish frequencies you want to add an
extra ground layer in that area to be the analog ground plane. You need
to make sure that no large currents can pass through this added layer.
This means that you often have to be careful about where and how many
places you hook the thing to the overall ground. Beware that the analog
circuits also make currents. It is also common practice to add even more
grounded copper on the top and bottom surfaces of the PCB. It doesn't
cost anything really to add it so go ahead.

In the power supply section, you again want to add more ground plane.
The best I've been able to come up with as a general description of what
to do is:

Imagine the power supply as being enclosed in a copper box with one hole
in it. In your thinking, all of the lines that come and go from the box
should pass in and out of this hole.

Right at the hole, they should have a capacitor to ground. Ideally each
line should also have some series impedance in it. The inductors normally
used in the supply design can be this impedance.

Now if you take this box and merge it with the top surface of the PCB, the
bottom of the box will become one of the added ground planes.

About chassis grounding:

You often will find you have competing requirements. For high
frequencies, you want the electronics solidly connected to the chassis.
For low frequencies, you may want only one point (near the signal entry
BNC for example). For safety, you may want no connection. For ESD you may
want some connection. I've used parallel RCs to make this all happen at
once. It adds a lot of extra capacitors though.

If this equipment is going to be rack mounted with other equipment, never
connect the PCB's plane to the chassis at both the front and the back
panel. If you have to, float a box within the chassis do so. Racks
almost always have 1 billion amps of current circulating in them. I have
measured voltages from front to back over 1.5Vp-p. Debugging a problem
that only happens when the screws are tight can take days (trust me).
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
I usually go for 0.1uF since even the contract assemblers in remote
locations will have oodles of them. I never really found a huge
difference in RF performance WRT to the smaller sizes, at least not for
bypassing.

How they get hooked up often matters more than the part its self.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I still prefer the 0805 .1uf X7R type. I have had bad luck with
anything in a Y5V or Z5U. My stuff hasn't been so miniaturized that
using devices smaller than 0805 makes much difference. And the hand
rework and modification on small runs is so much easier.

Yeah, I hate 0603's, but sometimes you have no choice. The
next-but-last VME board we did, a 6U Eurocard, had 1050 parts.

John
 
T

theJackal

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi There,

Just wondering why in alot of pcb design guides they suggest separating
the digital and analog circuity (i.e. grounding and supplies) and at
the same time have a commmon reference point somewhere in the circuit
(i.e. join analog ground to digital ground), I realise that the fast
digital switching could induce noise on some sensitive analog
components and separation is nesscesary but why then join both grounds
at one point? also as a separate but poss related question what is
meant by the term grond loops in pcbs and why avoid them?

Thanks and regards,

S_Boro
A good question I'd say.
Power supplies have large return currents which are grounded and as
the resistance of the grounding wire is low but NOT zero a
significant voltage drop occurs over the conductor. A low power
circuit like a digital one which connects to the same ground would
have a reference voltage above ground potential. The switching noise
you mentioned can cause considerable ground voltage variation and even
if the grounding wire is short , high frquencies in low parasitic
inductances translate into higher voltages. Your question is why use
a common point as a ground ? Imagine if each IC was connected to the
nearest grounded conductor on the PCB. The ICs ground potential would
be adversely affected in the ways mentioned above by the seperate
circuitry which is connected to ground . A seperate wiring to one
point somewhat solves the problem till audio frquencies of 20kHz.

At higher frequencies though the inductances of the grounding wires
create more problems then they solve ... so a distributed ground
plane is sometimes used , power and ground buses and so on ...

A lot more can be said but just ask if you need more info.

"Go easy on the whisky"

theJackal
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
[...]
Yeah, I hate 0603's, but sometimes you have no choice. The
next-but-last VME board we did, a 6U Eurocard, had 1050 parts.

My current project hass a forest of 0402s. Just as my eyes start to go,
the parts get way smaller. :\
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
theJackal said:
A low power
circuit like a digital one which connects to the same ground would
have a reference voltage above ground potential.

Not all digital stuff is low power. 20A at 5V is far from low power.
 
T

theJackal

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not all digital stuff is low power. 20A at 5V is far from low power.
Yes, but I was giving an example of a typical PCB with many circuits
including a digital circuit and a Power supply. The current in any
one of those circuits (which may include 1 or many seperate digital
circuits) is less then the current flowing through the Power supply
cables. To be more clearer ... If you had a digital circuit with 20A
flowing through it the current flowing through the Power supply
cables is greater so that would make it low power compared to the
Power supply. OK I know a better terminology could be used but I
hoped I was understandable.



theJackal
 
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