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ground wire question

D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
"w_tom"
How can I have this "intermittent arcing wire inside walls" checked out?
Would I need an electrician to check this or is it something I could do?
Thanks,
DJ
 
D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
| Could you tell me what kind of problems have you heard of from using the
| surge protector with no ground?

The surge protection attempts to clamp high voltages to ground when they
reach a certain level. If there is no ground, the circuit is ineffective
as the surge impulse will return, or jump over to the other line.
http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
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D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil
Thanks for this information. There's lots for me to learn about electric,
isn't there?
DJ

| Could you tell me what kind of problems have you heard of from using the
| surge protector with no ground?

The surge protection attempts to clamp high voltages to ground when they
reach a certain level. If there is no ground, the circuit is ineffective
as the surge impulse will return, or jump over to the other line.
http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
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D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
Greg
I do have 2 separate hard drives, that I switched out and still had the
problem.
How would I change to half the memory?
Thanks DJ
 
D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil
I have heard people mention this, "power off" I have always shut down from
within Windows, START, TURN OFF COMPUTER, etc. How would I go about powering
off my PC?
Also, I don't have a reset button.
Thanks once again, DJ

The motherboard chip that controls the power operation probably gets
into an unusable state due to errors in the glitch. On some boards
pressing reset for 3 seconds, then power, may correct it. Otherwise,
switching off or unplugging the power supply is necessary to bring
the system entirely down.

As a practice, when I "turn off" a PC, I power off with the system power
button, then switch off the power strip / surge protector, then unplug it.
I'm not often doing that as I run Linux which just about never needs a
reboot. And when I need to it's due to a thunderstorm (I've seen hits
by lightning that would vaporize a power strip).
http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
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D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Kilowatt
I've tried that.Maybe I should try a totally different wall socket.
Thanks DJ

Kilowatt said:
Another reason to suspect the power outlet.
It could be the single outlet in the power strip.
Plug it into another hole.
 
D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kilowatt
Hi, I mentioned changing to a different wall socket (outlet) in my other
email to you. I must have read your mind.
Will try that tomorrow.
Thanks, DJ
 
D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave
Hi, thanks for your response, "isolate emi filters in PC power supplies".
Is there any way to have this tested?

Thanks, DJ
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Important to remember - PC is still powered even though it
is turned off. The only fully powered off PC is one with the
wall plug removed. Never remove or install anything inside a
computer with power plug attached to wall receptacle.

Notice that power switch is push button. There must be
electronics to monitor that switch. When electronics sees
switch temporarily pressed, then 'monitoring' electronics
orders the power supply to turn on. IOW there is always power
in that power switch 'monitoring' electronics. Only way to
completely remove power from motherboard, power supply control
circuit, and some peripherals is to pull power cord from wall.

Removing computer components with power still on motherboard
may damage components or motherboard.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
One indication of internal and intermittent wire problems is
how severe is the dimming. Placing a heavy load at the end
of that circuit may tend to aggravate the problem. With a
heavy load, then voltage at end of that wire would be
significantly lower (which means of course you have the
necessary too - 3.5 digit multimeter).

Heavy load (ie electric heater) at end of circuit would also
cause a noticeable dimming of incandescent lamps that share
same circuit - if wire in wall is a problem. Dimming of
lights means something is wrong or weakened.

Electrician could discover why problem exists. But more
important is to first make the problem reproducible - so that
you have something to show the electrician. Better you do the
easy labor rather than have him do it at electrician rates.
Take inventory of what is on, what is off, and what changes
(on to off, or off to on) when dimming occurs.

Seriously consider having a new circuit run to that computer
so that computer has a safety ground, as computer was designed
to need. Safety ground (or GFCI) should also be in kitchen
and bathrooms. Additionally, electrician could install the
upgraded (required since 1990) earth ground and a 'whole
house' protector. Minimally acceptable protector can be
obtained at Home Depot for less than $50. Some electricians
instead install an undersized Square D protector that costs
much more money.

IOW give him enough that he can create and therefore find
reason for dimming. Then also take advantage of his arrival
by having other basic stuff fixed. Even if kitchen grounded
outlets are too expensive, still, get that earthing ground and
'whole house' protector installed. Much cheaper to have done
when you have already paid for his traveling time on this
dimming problem.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Line filters assume the safety ground (third prong) exists.
If safety ground is missing, then sometimes run a finger
lightly on metal chassis and feel the 60+ AC volts - a sort of
tingle. This 'stray' voltage might cause your power supply
control circuit (on motherboard) to lockout. But that would
be unique to each computer design.

If leakage is causing your problem, then running computer in
an receptacle with safety ground (third prong) would
completely eliminate the problem. As I noted elsewhere, the
computer was designed *assuming* the safety ground exists.
You have no way to test that this is a problem other than
running computer in a properly safety grounded circuit and
observing no more failures.
 
DJ said:
Hi Greg
Now that you mention it, the lights have flickered every once in a while.
You're busily chasing down a "PC problem" when the place you should
be looking is in your sentence above.

Forget the PC for a moment. Fix the flickering problem, for
2 reasons:
1) It could kill you
2) It is likely causing the PC problem.
 
D

DJ

Jan 1, 1970
0
"w_tom"
Hi, I've never had any problem with the lights dimming in this room. In
the kitchen, the light over the table flickers occassionally, also sometimes
when I use the microwave it will make the light over the sink flicker. I
will have this outlet checked to make sure it is working correctly, then
will let the newsgroup know if I still have problems. My PC doesn't shut
down everyday, I never know when to expect it. So it may take a few days
before it happens again.
Is it possible to add a new circuit with a ground just in one room of the
house? if there is a problem with this outlet?
We have a new Home Depot close by, so I will check and see if they have
the protector you mentioned.
Thanks again, I appreciate the help.
DJ
 
DJ wrote:
Is it possible to add a new circuit with a ground just in one room of the
house?
Yes, but ground is not your problem. PC's do not need ground to operate
properly. PC's are grounded for safety. Consider a laptop - the line cord
is two wires with no ground prong - it has no ground connection, yet
performs
all the same functions as a "regular" PC.

A surge protector won't address your problem, either.

Address the flickering problem first. If you still have a problem
with the PC dropping power after the flickering problem is resolved
post again.
 
K

Kilowatt

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think I would take the computer to a friends house and find out if it is
your computer or you house.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have seen where a computer would not work only when
plugged into a house where someone had cut off all safety
ground wires in the breaker box. If computer comes with a
safety ground wire, then computer is designed on the
assumption that safety ground will exist. If that safety
ground wire is not connected, then stray 60+ voltage might
exist - which causes other problem and failures when computer
is connected to peripherals.

Some computers have worked just fine without that safety
ground. I have seen another fail due to no safety ground. We
know (even from the HP Laserjet II experience) that missing
safety grounds can cause hardware failure.

Will safety ground fix the problem? Maybe yes; maybe no.
Just because a laptop designed only to work on two wires
exists does not mean that a computer designed for three prongs
will not fail on two prong power. Those two computers (the
three prong verses two prong) are designed differently.

A surge protector is not to fix the problem. The surge
protector recommendation was because an electrician was
already paid to appear, will already be working inside the
breaker box, and should also be utilized to upgrade earth
ground and install 'whole house' protector. Recommendation
made to maximize value of an electrician for long term benefit
to computer and other electronics.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
There is a major difference between dimming verses
flickering. This is why any response to your problem can be
difficult. No light anywhere should flicker when the
microwave is turned on. Was the light flickering or dimming?

You can have a dedicated circuit with ground installed
almost anywhere inside the house. Does the washing machine at
other end of building cause computer to fail when it starts a
spin dry? These are symptoms you are watching for. What was
happening anywhere else in the house when computer crashed?
Important symptoms that only you can answer. Symptoms that
may or may not answer you mystery.
 
w_tom said:
I have seen where a computer would not work only when
plugged into a house where someone had cut off all safety
ground wires in the breaker box. If computer comes with a
safety ground wire, then computer is designed on the
assumption that safety ground will exist. If that safety
ground wire is not connected, then stray 60+ voltage might
exist - which causes other problem and failures when computer
is connected to peripherals.

Tom - for lord's sake - he's got flickering lights. In addition, his PC
powers off.
How on earth can a missing ground casue either one of those problems?
Which problem presents greater risk to him?

Your presentation contains no facts, and invalid assumptions. Saying
a "stray 60+ voltage might exist" is a non-specific, unsupported
speculation. It does not state where the voltage is, why the figure
is 60+, where it came from, and whether it is a "bad thing", a
"good thing", or an interesting but irrelevant item. Aside from
the power supply, the electronics is NOT designed with a three prong
plug in mind. That third wire is there for safety. The NEC does
not allow you to consider the grounding wires as a current carrying
conductor (article 400-5 1999 NEC) - a manufacturer must not
intentionally introduce any current to that grounding conductor.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Does he have flickering lights or just dimming lights?
Until he answers the question that was posted previously, then
do you really know?

In the meantime, 60 Hz AC leakage voltages can cause
problems with the power supply controller on motherboard on
some computers. I have seen it as previously posted. If you
don't why it can happen, well then you were not a digital
logic designer (IOW where does that leaking 60+ AC go?).

Instead of invoking the lord, look at the original post. He
asked if missing safety ground can cause computer problems.
The answer is yes. In addition to addressing the flickering
light problem (which was already done and apparently does not
occur when computer has problems), he also has a potential
problem that is described as quoted:
Could someone tell me if, not having any ground wiring in your
home could cause computer problems? My PC would just shut down
for no apparent reason.

Yes, a missing safety ground, in some cases, can also create
this problem AND cause hardware damage. Will you focus
blindly on the flickering lights and ignore all other
potential reasons for that computer problem? The flickering
lights possibility has already been addressed and is awaiting
further information from the OP. No reason for you to now
bring the Lord's Sakes into this discussion.

Yes that third wire is for safety. But some designs use it
to carry away the 60 hz leakage. You have never seen an Intel
USART destroyed because that leakage (120 microamp) 60+ volts
found another path when safety ground was missing? USART
damaged, in part, because safety ground was missing -
irregardless of the lord's sake.
 
The modern op-amp-c computer supplies are so slow they can't even buffer a
christmas light flasher spike - why does anyone think they can handle a loose
neutral or spiking ground and not shut down the processor?
I snipped most of your rambling post, but the part I left represents
the major problem I see with what you posted.
1) His PC is not connected to ground, so we can dismiss a spiking
ground as the problem.
2) You kept dragging the neutral in. I never mentioned
neutral. In addition, it seems you think that the grounding conductor
will carry current when the neutral breaks - you said :
b) First, the earth ground lead does NOT just sit there.
Second, it does NOT only conduct when the neutral goes to hell.

The ground conductor is there to conduct fault current. In the
absence of any other defects, the ground conductor will NOT
conduct current when the neutral opens.

You mention a break on the neutral, fluorescents "seeing" 60 volts
instead of 120 and so forth. I agree - a problem on the neutral can
certainly cause the PC to drop power. But the issue is not a
problem on the neutral - it is whether or not a missing equipment
grounding conductor can cause a PC to drop power. It cannot.
You need some other problem aside from a missing egc to
cause a PC to drop power when it shouldn't.
do with the neutral
 
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