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R

Rhongh Dhongh

Jan 1, 1970
0
The remarks below were made on the Vortex list.

You can subscribe to it by sending a *blank* message to:
[email protected]
Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the
header. No quotes around "subscribe," of course.

I thought they would be interesting to readers of the energy
newsgroups.

There is something to be said for doing what you think is right,
even if it costs you more than not doing it.

That's what using solar panels and other alternative forms of
energy amounts to.

People who do nothing but look at payback time for solar panels or
other forms of alternative energy are missing the forest for the
trees.

If people would wean themselves from oil-based electricity, even
if it is not economic to start with, it would be an incentive for
researchers and entrepreneurs to come up with more efficient solar
panels and other methods of generating heat and electricity.



[email protected] writes:

The latest EE Times ( Dec. 12) has a cover article on T.J. Rodgers
and Cypress Semiconductors getting into solar power, big-time.
They bought a former disk-drive plant in Manila, Phillipines to
crank out wafers. "We fully anticipate the Philippines fab being
capable of turning out the equivalent of 100 megawatts a year" a
spokeman said.

They hope to up the efficiency and knock prices down to $1.50 a
watt.

High oil prices could be the best thing that ever happened to
alternative energy. I hope such prices continue for several years
so as to establish alternatives firmly - in some cases, with wind
and solar power, the equipment won't get ripped out just because
oil prices decline. The oil companies and OPEC nations will get
stuck competing against decentralized sources that won't go away.

Heck, all we really need is a bit more electricity per year and
some other way to power automoblies and we're done with
terrorists, Middle East instability, much of the trade deficit,
and a host of other problems.
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rhongh said:
There is something to be said for doing what you think is right,
even if it costs you more than not doing it.

That's what using solar panels and other alternative forms of
energy amounts to.

If solar panels cost some $25/watt it destroys capital. Capital that
could be used for R&D to get the cost of solar thermal electric farms
down to $4/watt. It may feel good if you throw the numbers out.

I prefer not to.

Best, Dan.

--
"We need an energy policy that encourages consumption"
George W. Bush.

"Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a
sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dan said:
If solar panels cost some $25/watt it destroys capital. Capital that
could be used for R&D to get the cost of solar thermal electric farms
down to $4/watt. It may feel good if you throw the numbers out.

I prefer not to.

Best, Dan.

It's a dang good thing that PV isn't $25 / watt, $4/watt is bad enough.
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
It's a dang good thing that PV isn't $25 / watt, $4/watt is bad enough.

That is $4 a 'peak watt'. But, you knew that....

Best, Dan.

--
"We need an energy policy that encourages consumption"
George W. Bush.

"Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a
sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dan said:
That is $4 a 'peak watt'. But, you knew that....

Best, Dan.

So what kind of watts are you talking about? Peak watts is how pv is
rated and sold.
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
So what kind of watts are you talking about? Peak watts is how pv is
rated and sold.

Fully installed producer watts.

Best, Dan.

--
"We need an energy policy that encourages consumption"
George W. Bush.

"Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a
sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney
 
A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bret said:
I don't see how pv will ever be able to compete with a closed cycle
engine with a dish reflector.

PV has no moving parts and can be scaled down to power calculators,
watches and PDA's. Even at larger (power my house) sizes, PV's
lack of friction, vibration, noise and tracking requirements, make
it a favored choice.

Anthony
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
I'm in the states and here that is simply not true. Most electricity
here is either natural gas or coal fired. Jimmy Carter initiated the
switch off oil fired.

Pretty disingenuous. Natural gas/oil/coal is a pretty poor choice. You
already import much of the NG from Canada, and you're going to be importing
huge amounts in the next few years from overseas through LNG plants in
Eastern Canada. You have enough coal, probably, for your own needs, but
still import from South America because it's cheaper than digging your own.
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
philkryder said:
Which of the follow 5 reduce carbon dioxide most effectively:
1) A typical dollar spent or improving energy efficiency.
2) A typical dollar spent on Wind energy.
3) A typical dollar spent on solar pv.
4) A typical dollar spent on solar heat.

In order, probably 1,4,2,5, but since I'm already doing all of them, I'll
still root for cheaper PV.
 
G

G. R. L. Cowan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Derek Broughton included:
... You have enough coal, probably, for your own needs, but
still import from South America because it's cheaper than digging your own.

The Americans do that? I'm surprised.
I thought their coal mining was the most mechanized
and cheapest in the world, much of it at a 75-foot-thick seam
in Montana.


--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
 
A

Anthony Matonak

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bret Cahill wrote:
....
In sharp contrast reciprocating external heat engines like the quiet
stirling only cost a couple of CENTS/watt and are more efficient as
well.

There is no way to justify pv for serious power generation.

Fine, show me a place where I can buy a solar thermal/stirling
electric power generator for a few cents/watt in the 1 to 10 KW
range. To the best of my knowledge (which, admittedly is limited)
no such beast exists.

Anthony
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bret said:
I don't see how pv will ever be able to compete with a closed cycle
engine with a dish reflector.


Bret Cahill

Lack of maintenance.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
philkryder said:
Which of the follow 5 reduce carbon dioxide most effectively:
1) A typical dollar spent or improving energy efficiency.
2) A typical dollar spent on Wind energy.
3) A typical dollar spent on solar pv.
4) A typical dollar spent on solar heat.
5) Your favorite alternative.

#1
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
Lack of maintenance.

If solar panels cost some $25/watt it destroys capital. Capital that
could be used for R&D to get the cost of solar thermal electric farms
down to $4/watt. It may feel good if you throw the numbers out.

I prefer not to.

Best, Dan.

--
"We need an energy policy that encourages consumption"
George W. Bush.

"Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a
sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney
 
S

SJC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bret Cahill wrote:
....
In sharp contrast reciprocating external heat engines like the quiet
stirling only cost a couple of CENTS/watt and are more efficient as
well.

There is no way to justify pv for serious power generation.

Fine, show me a place where I can buy a solar thermal/stirling
electric power generator for a few cents/watt in the 1 to 10 KW
range. To the best of my knowledge (which, admittedly is limited)
no such beast exists.

Anthony

The new Edison project with solar thermal stirling dishes on a large scale
shows that this was their choice. For homes, PV might be the way to go to
get distributed generation. Central production and transmission may not
be the only way to go. The recent interest in PV may bring prices down
some, but it will still be compared to central generation and distribution.
If you believe in the market system, at some point those will cross over
and you will have an economic choice as well.
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bret said:
<> I don't see how pv will ever be able to compete with a closed cycle

<> engine with a dish reflector.

< PV has no moving parts

A closed cycle gas turbine only has a couple low maintence parts.
Fine. Sell me one when you get it on the market. Mind you, I can't make
much use of more than 5KW.
In sharp contrast reciprocating external heat engines like the quiet
stirling only cost a couple of CENTS/watt and are more efficient as
well.

I'll take one - where do I order?
 
B

bumtracks

Jan 1, 1970
0
philkryder said:
"....You have enough coal, probably, for your own needs, but
still import from South America because it's cheaper than digging your
own.
-- "

Did you mean coal from South America?
Do you have a reference?
What percent of US coal consumption is imported?
Which countries supply it?

US Coal Production Exports Imports
2004 1,112,099 47,998 27,280 (Thousand Short Tons)
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/quarterly/html/t7p01p1.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/quarterly/html/t4p01p1.html
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
philkryder said:
"...In order, probably 1,4,2,5, but since I'm already doing all of
them, I'll
still root for cheaper PV."

So how much cheaper would PV have to become in order to move up to even
3rd on your list?

$0.50/W, probably. In small generation it's not a lot worse deal than wind.
 
D

Derek Broughton

Jan 1, 1970
0
philkryder said:
I read that as we export nearly twice what we import -
And
That neither is very significant -
imports at about 2.5% of production
exports at 4.3%

Any idea what countries it is coming from?
Canada would make sense...
but the poster indicated somewhere in South America....

afaik, most SA coal is coming from Venezuela. I didn't say that your
imports were a significant part of American requirements - in fact I said
you probably had enough for your own needs, and it seems you do. Yet you
still _do_ import it. It's possible some comes from Canada (British
Columbia), but I doubt it. Right now, nobody is digging coal in Nova
Scotia, which used to be our main source of supply.
 
B

bumtracks

Jan 1, 1970
0
Coal imports 2003, 'Thousand Short Tons'

Australia China Other
330 156 256

Columbia 15,479
Venezuela 4,625
Indonesia 2,105
Canada 2,099
combined totals ... 25,044
 
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