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Global Warming hits the Eastcoast !

E

Ed Huntress

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Grise said:
Speaking of losing memory neurons, I seem to recall seeing a sort of
diagram, back in the '50's, when they had flat-head straight 6's, that
something like 2% of the potential power in the fuel actually got to the
wheels.

Ha! Well, they may have exaggerated that a bit <g>, but the percentage is
very low. Flatheads were pretty awful from a thermal-efficiency
standpoint -- too much combustion-chamber surface area relative to
combustion-chamber volume.
There were HUGE thermal losses, and friction, and yadda yadda yadda...

Yeah, sometimes you have to wonder how they go anywhere at all. d:cool:

Compare that with a hydrogen fuel cell: up to 80% or so, without fancy
cogeneration. The electric motor it powers also is around 80% efficient, for
something like 64% overall efficiency.

Unfortunately, producing the hydrogen is not that efficient. No free lunch,
once again.
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich said:
Airbus quote 3 litres of fuel used per 100 pasenger km - approx
equivalent to ~ 50 UK mpg or ~ 40 US mpg. Better than a car with a
sole occupant at least.

Of course the long distance of many airline flights means a large
amount of fuel is used. Chances are most ppl would think twice about
the need to visit their their destination if they had to drive.

I've been on a couple of excruciatingly long overseas flights - like,
14 hours of cruising across the Pacific[1], and I wonder where the hell
they keep all of that fuel? The fuel lines on those engines are, like,
2" (5 cm) or so in diameter! (well, the ones I've seen on USAF fighter
jets.)

The wings are very capacious. Longest I've had to endure was 13 hours btw.
Long enough.

Graham
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
Maybe, but it's a lot less sad than the scenario where the fanatics
install a global totaliarian dictator to shoot people who light a fire
or fart without permission.

For a second I read that as light your farts.

Wise move though. Methane is a 'worse' greenhouse gas than CO2.

Graham
 
E

Ed Huntress

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Grise said:
Ed said:
Even electricity generation is no better than 37% efficient apparently (
recent
UK figure ).

Well, even that is somewhat higher than I recall, because the steam-turbine
example above is for one engaged in generating electricity.

However, my memory isn't that precise, and is getting less so, and
technology no doubt has improved. A turbine's practical efficiency isn't a
factor of theoretical heat cycles as much as it is a matter of how much heat
and erosion it can tolerate.

I came across that figure in a thread in another ng recently. Apparently up from
35% only a few years ago. There's been quite a lot of new generation built
recently in the UK using natural gas which may explain the improvement. It also
entertainly shows how short term thinking ( natural gas is cheap - so lets burn
it ) can blow up in your face !

In regard to gas turbines, I visited Pratt & Whitney's engine division
decades ago on a press junket, to hear them tell us how they'd raised the
operating temperature of a jet engine by roughly 100 degrees F, from 2,200
to 2,300 degrees. I remarked that didn't really sound very impressive. An
old P&W engineer sitting next to me said, "Son [I was much younger then
<g>]," there are men here who would sell their grandmothers for another
hundred degrees."

A friend of mine works in aeropsace design. I'm awed by the tricks they use to
cool those turbine blades. They would melt otherwise !

I was on a document coding project where somebody was suing somebody else
about inferior turbine blades. They're like, a single crystal of titanium
that's grown in a mold, and if you drop one on the floor, you have to
scrap it. I think maybe even if you touch it with bare fingers, you have
to scrap it. It seems a new jet engine is about $2,000,000.00, but an
overhaul, where they basically replace all of the turbine blades and
bearings, is only about $250,000.00. Or, was in the 1990's. :)

The single-crystal technology was what that press conference was all about.
P&W invented it around 1978 or so. But the metal is a superalloy (a
high-temperature alloy of nickel, cobalt, etc.), not titanium.

They grow the crystal from a pool of molten metal, pulling the mold and
blade out of the pool in a way similar to the way silicon crystals for
semiconductors are grown. Very impressive to watch.

I don't think it's particularly delicate, but you wouldn't want to drop one.
They cool those blades in the engine by blowing air through a series of tiny
holes that are eroded along the lengths of the blades by EDM or ECM
(electrical-discharge machining or electrochemical machining).

Because a gas turbine (jet engine, or turboshaft engine) has no cooling
cycle, the peak flame temperatures can only be around half those in an
automobile engine. That's why car engines are more efficient than turbines:
efficiency is directly related to peak temperature of the cycle.
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Pooh Bear said:
Ken said:
[...]
Global warming is a widely disputed theory.

The warming isn't very disputed. It is the cause that is being argued
about these days.

Very true.

Even the US contingent that say it's *not* due to human activity don't dismiss
the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere though AFAIK. They simply dispute how much
an influence it is.

The sane conclusion therefore is to limit CO2 ( and other greenhouse gas )
emissions since it can at worst do no harm to do so !

Judging from some responses I see here, the USA will go directly from
"there's no problem" to "it's *too late* to do anything about it
anyway". Skipping entirely the "it looks like there is a problem,
perhaps we shouldn't make it worse" phase.

Sadly, I suspect it may indeed be too late. Bye-bye Florida ( for example ).

Graham
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
I'd be willing to bet real money that you just pulled that number out of
your ass.


I'll bet that you're right. I'll bet that's where he keeps all his
numbers. ;-)

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
F

Frithiof Andreas Jensen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Unfortunately, producing the hydrogen is not that efficient. No free lunch,
once again.

It is fairly efficient cracking a hydrocarbon to produce H2 - improving the
efficiency of the use of fossil fuel by about 100 % also has utility.

Messing around with pure hydrogen is silly and represents the typical
eco-loon thinking I.M.O - there is a vast infrastructure for handling
hydrogen when wrapped in a liquid but there is none for pure H2.
 
F

Frithiof Andreas Jensen

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'd be willing to bet real money that if the USA stood down their military,
and called off all of the invasions and crusades and other mischief
they're perpetrating all over the world, that worldwide oil consumption
would decrease by 25-50%.

I think you are right:

Left to themselves at least 1/3 of the middle east population would Darwin
themselves within a decade or so; The turmoil would destroy the Oil fields
first as they are the sole source of income of the opposing factions. That
would represent a drop in supplies by 25% - 50% over the decade - depending
on what the mitigation strategies of the developed world would be.
 
T

Todd Rich

Jan 1, 1970
0
In rec.crafts.metalworking Ed Huntress said:
Compare that with a hydrogen fuel cell: up to 80% or so, without fancy
cogeneration. The electric motor it powers also is around 80% efficient, for
something like 64% overall efficiency.
Unfortunately, producing the hydrogen is not that efficient. No free lunch,
once again.

Well, they could start bulding nuclear power plants and use the excess
night time capacity to electrolyse the hydrogen out of water. Several
advantages are much lower CO2 production from removing the coal fired
plants. Not to mention getting rid of the thousands of tons of uranium
and thorium that are dumped into the air from coal plants:
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html
And if they would allow the reprocessing of the fuel rods it would cut
down dramatically on the amount of waste produced. And while the
remaining waste is much hotter, it lasts for signifigantly less time.
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
Todd said:
And if they would allow the reprocessing of the fuel rods it would cut
down dramatically on the amount of waste produced.

In the UK the pollution associated with nuclear energy comes primarily from the
*re-processing* !
And while the
remaining waste is much hotter, it lasts for signifigantly less time.

You *are* joking ? How on earth can you make that statement ? The scary stuff
doesn't just 'go away' !

Graham
 
C

carneyke

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mike,
200 - 160 = 40 (Correct ?)
40 degree increase over 160 degree = 25 % (Correct ?)
Sorry, but you are the LUSER
See what I mean about having common sense.
That's why your broke and I'm not.........
 
T

Todd Rich

Jan 1, 1970
0
Todd Rich wrote:
In the UK the pollution associated with nuclear energy comes primarily from the
*re-processing* !
You *are* joking ? How on earth can you make that statement ? The scary stuff
doesn't just 'go away' !

What is the half-life of U-235?

What is the half-life of Co-60?

Which one is hotter?

And please note that I did *NOT* say it just goes away. The waste from
reprocessing needs to be stored for at least a thousand years. However
storing is a lot better than breathing the radioactive materials that are
being produced in coal-fired plants right now. And the volume of material
that needs to be stored is signifigantly less than un-reprocessed waste.
 
E

Ed Huntress

Jan 1, 1970
0
Frithiof Andreas Jensen said:
It is fairly efficient cracking a hydrocarbon to produce H2 - improving the
efficiency of the use of fossil fuel by about 100 % also has utility.

Messing around with pure hydrogen is silly and represents the typical
eco-loon thinking I.M.O - there is a vast infrastructure for handling
hydrogen when wrapped in a liquid but there is none for pure H2.

If by "wrapped in a liquid" you mean carried in methanol, the problem with
that is that fuel-cell conversion efficiency drops from around 80% to 30 -
40% when you do that.

No free lunch.
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
carneyke said:
Mike,
200 - 160 = 40 (Correct ?)
40 degree increase over 160 degree = 25 % (Correct ?)

Flawed. Fahrenheit isn't a measure of absolute temperature.

Sorry, but you are the LUSER
See what I mean about having common sense.
That's why your broke and I'm not.........

You're truly an idiot of the grand order.

I suggest you go back to school.

Graham
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mike,
200 - 160 = 40 (Correct ?)
40 degree increase over 160 degree = 25 % (Correct ?)

Real scientists measure temperature using absolute temperature scales.
Redoing your math:

669 - 629 = 40 (Correct!)

40 degree increase over 629 = 6.4%. (Correct!)
 
E

Ed Huntress

Jan 1, 1970
0
Todd Rich said:
Well, they could start bulding nuclear power plants and use the excess
night time capacity to electrolyse the hydrogen out of water. Several
advantages are much lower CO2 production from removing the coal fired
plants. Not to mention getting rid of the thousands of tons of uranium
and thorium that are dumped into the air from coal plants:
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html
And if they would allow the reprocessing of the fuel rods it would cut
down dramatically on the amount of waste produced. And while the
remaining waste is much hotter, it lasts for signifigantly less time.

Nuclear is an attractive option for generating electricity, and hydrogen. In
terms of efficiency, however, the total system is still pretty low.
[/QUOTE]
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
Todd said:
What is the half-life of U-235?

What is the half-life of Co-60?

I'm sure you can find the precise data for that very readily on the net or at Wikipedia.

That's not the point though. Used nuclear fuel contains a rich mix of fission products
you haven't mentioned some of which have very long half lives and some with very high
toxicity.

Which one is hotter?

You can't make any direct simple comparison. Radioactivity of any active element will
vary with time.

And please note that I did *NOT* say it just goes away. The waste from
reprocessing needs to be stored for at least a thousand years.

Much much longer. 100,000 yrs at least.

However
storing is a lot better than breathing the radioactive materials that are
being produced in coal-fired plants right now.

The stuff that goes up the chimneys isn't U235 !

And the volume of material
that needs to be stored is signifigantly less than un-reprocessed waste.

Not so. Reprocessing creates vast quantities of highly radioactive and acidic liquid
waste. The main problem at BNFL's Sellafield site.

Also - what do you do with the plutonium ?

Graham
 
T

Todd Rich

Jan 1, 1970
0
In rec.crafts.metalworking Ed Huntress said:
Nuclear is an attractive option for generating electricity, and hydrogen. In
terms of efficiency, however, the total system is still pretty low.

True, but the total pool you are drawing from is pretty large...
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
carneyke said:
Mike,
200 - 160 = 40 (Correct ?)
40 degree increase over 160 degree = 25 % (Correct ?)

No, it is not correct, because absolute zero is not equal to 0° F.
Sorry, but you are the LUSER
See what I mean about having common sense.
That's why your broke and I'm not.........

You are hopeless, and your intellectual account is overdrawn.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
C

carneyke

Jan 1, 1970
0
In the original post I was speaking in Fahrenheit not Celcius or
Kelvin. An increase from 160 to 200 is 25 %, no matter where you are in
the world. Jeez, lighten up.........
 
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