generator

[Rob]

hi,

storm comming!!!! this friday.

i have a honda 11hp 6850 max 5500 norm gen.

what do you think of this set up

-put in a 220v 30 amp breaker in home panel & wire it to another 30 amp
disconnect thats tied to a female recepticle for the generator plug.
--if power fails pull the main & turn off all breakers
--close the 30amp breaker on the main panel & close the disconnect.
--fire up the generator & plug it in.slowly turning on only essential
breakers.(conservatively not to exceed gen. rating)
**** how does this affect the load on the left & right poles of the
generator if theyre not balanced?
In otherwords I have 2 lives 1 neutral & a ground tied & isolated to my gen.
if the left side of my panel (120v) draws more than the right will that
affect the gen.? or as in theory it all comes back to source and
balances.....I think.


Feedback appreciated
but not backfeed(haha)

Robert

 

[Rob]

hey guys....
a disconnect is a manual trow over switch....sorry for the confusion.
Robert

 

[Charles Perry]

Why don't you just do it right? Hey, you asked here.

Your generator cord, if I understand what you are doing, is called
a suicide cord for a reason. And there is nothing to prevent
backfeeding.

I agree with BG, do it right. It will keep you from killing yourself or the
poor lineman working in your area. Get a manual transfer switch from an
electrical supply store.

Charles Perry P.E.

 

[[email protected]]

hey guys....
a disconnect is a manual trow over switch....sorry for the confusion.
Robert

You miss the point. 1) Your disconnect will energize your circuit
breaker panel without disconnecting the panel from the utility
lines. 2) The cord you intend to use will have male plugs at each
end. (Thus the name "suicide cord")

Both of the above are unsafe.

 

[Rob]

your missing
main breaker off....read the 1st post

rob

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

You miss the point. 1) Your disconnect will energize your circuit
breaker panel without disconnecting the panel from the utility
lines. 2) The cord you intend to use will have male plugs at each
end. (Thus the name "suicide cord")

Both of the above are unsafe.

As a slight aside, I find it really interesting that you can even *suggest*
such a wiring scheme over there - let alone actually do it.

In Oz/NZ, any modifications to a domestic switchboard to fit a generator
connection *must* be done by a licensed electrician *and* inspected by the
local power authority.. and then your insurance company will disown you
before you can turn the power back on to your house! I guess that's to
prevent Joe Householder killing himself...

Cameron

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

Rob, you said, "if power fails pull the main & turn off all breakers".

The changeover from normal supply to generator supply must be mechanically
interlocked such that it is not *physically* possible to connect the
generator to the utility - even by accident.

Cameron

 

[[email protected]]

your missing
main breaker off....read the 1st post

No, I am not missing main breaker off -
I read the first post. Now, re-read what I posted:
"1) Your disconnect will energize your circuit
breaker panel without disconnecting the panel from the utility
lines."

Your disconnect is not mechanically connected to your main
breaker. Therefore, your disconnect CANNOT trip or pull the
main breaker. In your first post you said:
"--if power fails pull the main & turn off all breakers"
You are indicating that YOU (or some person)
will pull the main. The DISCONNECT will not do it.

You came here asking what people thought of your idea:
"what do you think of this set up"
People are trying to tell you what they think, but you are
missing it.

What you need is a TRANSFER SWITCH, not a DISCONNECT.
The setup, as you described it, is unsafe for the reasons
already posted. A transfer switch guarantees that the utility
lines cannot become energized by the generator. Forget to pull
the main in your method, and those lines can become energized.

 

[[email protected]]

As a slight aside, I find it really interesting that you can even *suggest*
such a wiring scheme over there - let alone actually do it.

People actually do far worse that what has only been suggested
here, in spite of our rules to the contrary. I imagine its the
same in Oz/NZ - but your rules may have "more teeth". I imagine
someone here may have gone to jail for violating the electrical
code, but I've never heard of it. People have died due to shoddy
and illegal wiring.

 

[**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**]

If you forget to turn main breaker off, or if someone else turns it back
on, you will energize the lines leading to the distribution pole and
there will be 7200 Volts waiting for an unsuspecting linesman. bad idea.
Better to pull the meter and hardwire into the meter box if you don'r
want to buy a manual transfer switch.

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

People actually do far worse that what has only been suggested
here, in spite of our rules to the contrary. I imagine its the
same in Oz/NZ - but your rules may have "more teeth". I imagine
someone here may have gone to jail for violating the electrical
code, but I've never heard of it. People have died due to shoddy
and illegal wiring.

Unfortunately, a lot of people die from shoddy and illegal wiring over here
too :-( You should see some of the reports we get from Insurance
Companies - it's amazing the things people will try to get away with.

...but the "line in the sand" is drawn pretty close to the incoming supply
lines and anyone *actually caught* tampering with their utility supply is
drawn slowly over hot coals by the Utility first and everyone else second..

On the positive side, they only do it once.

Cameron.

 

[Rob]

I would never forget to open the main breaker in this case. Are there people
out there that would or have? Alos I would block it open via mechanical
interlock.

Thanks for beating me up!
Rob

 

[Cameron Dorrough]

I would never forget to open the main breaker in this case. Are there people
out there that would or have?

I'm sure you wouldn't.. at least not intentionally, and Yes there are.
Electrical wiring must be safe enough to be fool-proof. If someone else
decided to hook up the generator whilst you were away somewhere and they
killed themselves (as they have) you (as the designer/installer/owner) would
get locked up. How would that make you feel??

Alos I would block it open via mechanical
interlock.

Thanks for beating me up!
Rob

No problem!.. We are happy to oblige. ;-)

Cameron

my

 

[John Phillips]

I agree with BG, do it right. It will keep you from killing yourself or the
poor lineman working in your area. Get a manual transfer switch from an
electrical supply store.

Charles,

Sorry for the belated response. I have not researched the various
codes. I do not doubt that there may be codes or guidelines that
suggest, recommend, or mandate double pole - double throw switches to
connect generators to a customer's low voltage system. In most cases,
the issue is to prevent damage to the generator itself or the
associated wiring and equipment in the event it inadvertently attempts
either to back feed a dead power system or to prevent an out of phase
synchronization with a live power system.

While the protection of utility personnel may be mentioned, I do not
believe that this is a relevant point. My recollection is that the
OSHA requirement for personnel safety mandates that conductors in a
system of above 480 volts be tested and grounded before any work
commences unless hot line techniques are employed. This means that the
type of switches that a customer may or may not employ for generators
have no bearing on the safety of utility personnel. In reality, who
would trust their life to devices where an uneducated customer was
responsible for the installation and maintenance and which in any
event have no visible break to allow inspection to insure that they
are open. We arrange elaborate assurances to confirm de-energization
for personnel protection with interconnected electric utilities who
know what they are doing (visibly open switches, locked, tagged,
grounded, and guaranteed to remain so). Why would any rational and
competent utility trust an even well intentioned customer with a
portable generator and a plug or switch?


Regards,

John Phillips

 

[John Phillips]

Rob
I don't think that most people would call what I said a verbal beeting.
The stakes are teribly high. Outside wiremen have been killed by
generator back feeds.

Tom,

I would be interested in any references for your assertion. If any
utility workers were killed, there has been a huge cover up in the
electric utility industry where I work. If they were killed, they were
in violation of OHSHA and most electric utility safety practices that
require that they treat all conductors of 480 volts or higher as live
unless they first test and then ground them or use hot line work
techniques. It is the height of ignorance to assume that any utility
would rely on an uneducated customer to prevent a back feed from his
or her generator for the safety of the lives of its workers.

Please give me some evidence or stop spreading misinformation and old
wive's tales. I would like more than one instance of evidence since
you used the plural.

Regards,

John Phillips

 

[Beachcomber]

We arrange elaborate assurances to confirm de-energization

for personnel protection with interconnected electric utilities who
know what they are doing (visibly open switches, locked, tagged,
grounded, and guaranteed to remain so). Why would any rational and
competent utility trust an even well intentioned customer with a
portable generator and a plug or switch?

I am not familiar with utility practices and have a question about
this.

Is it typical for a lineman after a storm to restore fuses and service
disconnects without practicing the safety procedures (testing for the
presence of voltage, proper gounding, etc.) that you mentioned?

Improper backfeeding of service conductors is and should be considered
a crime with severe penalties, of course.

I'm just wondering if some of the experts in the field would suggest
that perhaps a change in procedure for utility crews such as
increasing training to be aware of,and test for, potential backfeeding
situations might help prevent some of these incidents where a lineman
was killed or injured. Are you saying that some utilities are
deficient in this training?

Beachcomber

 

[Bob Weiss]

I am also curious how they deal with those folks who do intentionally and
legally back feed the grid with home generated power.

A net-metered RE system must have an inverter/automatic transfer switch
that automatically disconnects from the grid in the event of a loss of
utility power. Utilities invariably require an accessible, well labelled
disconnect outside the house, near the service entrance.

The utility generally inspects the installation VERY closely before
allowing you to connect such a system to the grid.

Bob Weiss N2IXK

 

[John Phillips]

Is it typical for a lineman after a storm to restore fuses and service
disconnects without practicing the safety procedures (testing for the
presence of voltage, proper gounding, etc.) that you mentioned?

If fused disconnect switches are not capable of picking up load, then
the circuit should be tested for potential before it is closed.
Recognize that it will normally take a very large generator to be able
to back feed any section of distribution line. There are several
houses on the low voltage side of my own 13.8kV to 240 volt
transformer and my 5kW unit is not capable of back feeding them. There
are hundreds of houses in the line segment between disconnects.

I'm just wondering if some of the experts in the field would suggest
that perhaps a change in procedure for utility crews such as
increasing training to be aware of,and test for, potential backfeeding
situations might help prevent some of these incidents where a lineman
was killed or injured. Are you saying that some utilities are
deficient in this training?
No.

Regards,

John Phillips