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GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture

Discussion in 'Lighting' started by JM, Jun 8, 2005.

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  1. JM

    JM Guest

    I've bought this GE/Jasco 55w 2D fluorescent fixture. The fixture is not as
    advertised because the package states "five 60w bulbs" is incorrect. The
    dome is too thickly frosted to achieve that claimed light output. Whoever
    designed this fixture must have went by the raw lumen output of the
    fluorescent tube, and probably never tested the actual fixture with the dome
    in place. I've contacted GE, but they say "contact Jasco". So I contact
    Jasco. Either the person responding to my email doesn't understand this, or
    they don't care. In short, Jasco says: "We can't make the bulb brighter, so
    just bring it back." ???? So of course I try to explain it to them again,
    not the BULB but the DOME is the problem. Either make the dome less thickly
    frosted, and/or at least fix the wattage claim on the box. I like the
    fixture, except the lower than claimed output is a little disappointing.
     
  2. SQLit

    SQLit Guest


    What method of measuring the light output did you use? Eyeball.

    Tilting at Windmills was fun when I younger and less informed. Best of luck
    getting them to change. I have some political issues with the President of
    the USA I could send you if you need something else to do.
     
  3. This is a common complaint of compact fluorescents.

    I would take light output claims exceeding that of known
    available incandescnts (including incandeascents with rated life as low
    as 750 hours) of as low as 2.5 times the claimed power consumption with
    skepticism in addition to at least a grain of salt, and claims of
    producing more light than an incandescent of about 3.5-4 times the claimed
    power consumption with at best "hostile skepticism".

    Producing same light as an incandescent of 1/4 the claimed power
    consumption is easier, due to a few various "economies of scale" that
    favor higher efficiency of higher wattage lightbulbs. However, even good
    brand/model compact fluorescents in good conditions only produce about as
    much light as better incandescents of 4 times their nominal wattage.
    For example, I have found the best 13-15 watt compact fluorescents
    generally to fail to significantly outshine the brightest 120V 60 watt
    incandescents, and I have found them more noted to fall short of "60 watt
    incandescent equivalence" than to exceed such. You may sometimes need a
    compact fluorescent of wattage in the 18-20 watt range to produce as much
    effectively usable light as a 60 watt incandescent, and in more extreme
    adverse cases require 23-25 watts of compact fluorescent wattage to get
    you as much useful light as a 60 watt incandeascent.

    And beware - recessed ceiling fixtures are a bad case, harder on
    "screw-in" (ballast-included-in-"bulb") compact fluorescents of wattage
    more than 20 watts, and ones as low as 15 watts get to claim something
    special about being rated to survive the heat endured in recessewd ceiling
    fixtures. (HINT: Compact fluorescents do not produce much infrared,
    produce more non-radiant heat [materializing in the fixture as opposed to
    elsewhere in the room] than incandescents of same wattage, heat up
    fixtures as much as incandescents of about 1.5 or more times as much
    wattage, and tolerate high tem,peratures less than incandescents do!)

    Not only do ceiling fixtures, especially recessed ones, as well as small
    enloclosed fixtures compromise the life of many compact fluorescents and
    most of ones of wattage over about 13-15 watts and probably nearly all of
    wattage over 20 watts, this can compromise light output, color of the
    emitted light, and color rendering properties of the emitted light.

    In a somewhat bad case, I have seen an installation (visiting many
    dozens of times night and day) of apparently 13 watt quadtube units in
    recessed ceiling downlights where the light output of each I have never
    estimated to significantly exceed that available from 40 watt "standard"
    incandescents.

    I do encourage usage of compact fluorescents, but I do warn that they
    have some "pitfalls"!

    - Don Klipstein (, http://www.misty.com/~don/cfx.html)
     
  4. in part:

    I have seen "in my experience" that compact fluorescent recessed ceiling
    "downlights" in commercial buildings tend to use lamps ("bulbs) that do
    not have built-in ballasts, as in the "bulbs" are not screw-in type and
    that the necessary ballasts are separate from the "bulbs", presumably at
    least somewhat removed from the heat produced by the lamps/"bulbs".

    - Don Klipstein ()
     
  5. Not only can't Jasco make the lamp (what you call the bulb) brighter,
    but they are not going to make a new dome just for you. If you don't
    like the fixture your only option is to bring it back.

    Now, let's take a look at the fixture manufacturers claims.

    The GE 55-watt 2D lamp is rated at 4000 lumens after 100 hours
    (Initial Lumens) and 3400 Mean Lumens (that is after 40% of rated
    life.)

    The light output of 120-volt 60-watt incandescent lamps vary with
    design life, type of diffusing coating, and a few other factors . I
    would say that the GE Model 60A, which is a 120-volt, 60-watt,
    1000-hour, A-19 lamp with conventional diffusing coating (not Soft
    White) is a good example of a "standard" incandescent lamp. This lamp
    is rated by GE for 856 initial lumens.

    So, based on initial bare lamp lumens only, the 55-watt 2D would be
    equivalent to 4.62 of these 60-watt incandescent lamps. However, based
    on mean lumens, the 55-watt 2D is equivalent to only 3.93 of these
    60-watt incandescent lamps. (Your evaluation took place with a new
    55-watt 2D lamp, so the mean lumen issue is not relevant to your
    problem.)

    But as you have stated, bare lamp lumens are not the whole story. The
    fixture must be designed to get the light produced from the lamps out
    of the fixture and on to the work surface. This involves not only the
    diffuser (dome) but also the reflector. I agree with your conclusion
    that the manufacturer's claim is based on the light produced by the
    55-watt 2D lamp, with a bit of exaggeration thrown in, and not the
    light out of the fixture.

    --
    Vic Roberts
    http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
    To reply via e-mail:
    replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
    or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

    This information is provided for educational purposes only.
    It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
    site without written permission.
     
  6. Guest

    You might compare the bulb to a 60 W bulb using Bunsen's 1844 "grease spot
    photometer"... move a 1" grease spot on a piece of white paper between the
    bulbs until the spot disappears, which indicates the intensities are the
    same at the card. The bulb brightness ratio is the square of the ratio of
    the distance from the card to each bulb...

    Nick
     
  7. We are interested in lumens not brightness. And, since the size and
    shape of the lamps in question are very different, we need to use an
    instrument more sophisticated than a grease spot photometer. In this
    case an integrating sphere or a goniometer will give lumen output
    independent of shape..

    --
    Vic Roberts
    http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
    To reply via e-mail:
    replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
    or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

    This information is provided for educational purposes only.
    It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
    site without written permission.
     
  8. Bob Ward

    Bob Ward Guest


    Tell me again - why are we interested in lumens, not brightness?
     
  9. Guest

    Perhaps the size and shape don't matter much, if the bulbs (vs fixtures)
    are far away from the spot. For non-isotropy (if any), we might put each
    in a 5-sided box (a sphere :) lined with foil with the open sides aimed
    at the spot.

    What's a goniometer? Sounds potentially painful.

    Nick
     
  10. I agree that if you are far enough away that both sources can be
    approximated by point sources and a grease spot photometer might work,
    except for the fact that the output of the 2D has a significant
    directional component due to the fact that the lamp is almost flat.
    You pseudo-sphere sounds like a good idea :)
    Only painful if you are standing in the wrong place when it is
    operating?

    I should have used the term gonio-photometer since "goniometer" is a
    more general term that applies to objects that can be rotated around
    all three axis, but sometimes to objects that only rotate around one
    axis, such as a variable angle protractor.

    The lighting industry uses the shorthand term "goniometer" to refer to
    a gonio-photometer. I have argued in this forum against using
    well-defined words incorrectly, so I will refrain from using
    goniometer to refer to a gonio-photometer from now on.

    A gonio-photometer is a detector on an arm of fixed length that can
    move completely around a light source. The gonio-photometer is
    installed in a room with flat black walls so there is no reflected
    light, only the direct light from the lamp or luminaire, depending
    upon what you are measuring. The detector mounted on the end of the
    arm collects light from the source falling on a virtual sphere
    surrounding the source and therefore gives lumens when the data is
    processed. You also get the light distribution at the same time.

    For an example of a gonio-photometer you can see:

    http://eetd.lbl.gov/BTP/lsr/l_facilities_gonio.html

    This version uses a mirror on the arm to reflect light to a fixed
    sensor, and mounts the source on a rotating table so the arm only
    moves in a 180 deg arc, but the concept is the same.

    --
    Vic Roberts
    http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
    To reply via e-mail:
    replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
    or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

    This information is provided for educational purposes only.
    It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
    site without written permission.
     
  11. Jeff Wisnia

    Jeff Wisnia Guest

    Please give my warmest regards to your associate Sancho Panza.

    Jeff

    --
    Jeffry Wisnia

    (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

    "Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."
     
  12. JM

    JM Guest

    quoting:

    Where is the demand? This is why implied advertising works so well on people
    like you. They say one thing, and and it's taken as another.
     
  13. JM

    JM Guest

    quoting:
    No, I didn't say that. I'm looking for general changes, that's all. But
    judging from Jasco's responses, they don't care. For some of you trolls from
    misc.consumers bringing it back isn't going to do squat. Jasco doesn't care.
    They aren't going to change a thing. What would it take for them to change:
    federal intervention? Millions of returns? Unfortunatly, that's the way the
    world is run today. Money comes first.



    Thank you.
     
  14. Bob Ward

    Bob Ward Guest


    As it should. If you are unhappy with their product and they refund
    your money, they are not obligated to do anything more.
     
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