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Fuse Wire

R

radsett

Jan 1, 1970
0
A simple question, at least to phrase.

I'm looking for information on fuse wire specifications. Resistance,
current and especially voltage rating. I'm assuming the voltage rating
(DC) will depend on the insulation used and length but at the moment I
can't seem to find any data at all to use as a starting point.

I've a client who wants to use fuse wire to replace ANN150 style fuses
with fuse wire (cheaper, no/less mounting hardware I'm told).

Robert

Yeah, I know Google groups. Unfortunately my ISP has dropped usenet
and I've not had a chance yet to find an alternate server.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Robert,
I've a client who wants to use fuse wire to replace ANN150 style fuses
with fuse wire (cheaper, no/less mounting hardware I'm told).

Bare fuse wire? Be careful, that can cause a fire. Or worse, if there is
any combustible condition. If that goes wrong your client might not be
there anymore.

Regards, Joerg
 
R

radsett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hello Robert,


Bare fuse wire?

I certainly hope not. I'll have to check that, but I think it has some
sort of insulator on it. My suspicion knowing the person involved is
that it is automotive sourced.
Be careful, that can cause a fire. Or worse, if there is
any combustible condition. If that goes wrong your client might not be
there anymore.

I'm hoping to convince him to keep using 'real' fuses. I need
something more than my own, currently untutored, reservations before I
can. If it'll work w/o too many problems I need to tutor my
reservations. My biggest problem at the moment is lack of information.

I know one of the concerns is the expense of the mounting block. I'm
pretty sure I can at least partly deal with that if I can convince him
he needs to stick with the ANN's.

Robert
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Robert,
I certainly hope not. I'll have to check that, but I think it has some
sort of insulator on it. My suspicion knowing the person involved is
that it is automotive sourced.

At 150 amp an arbitrary insulator may not help. It needs a controlled
'blowing environment' where it won't spew glowing metal around.
I'm hoping to convince him to keep using 'real' fuses. I need
something more than my own, currently untutored, reservations before I
can. If it'll work w/o too many problems I need to tutor my
reservations. My biggest problem at the moment is lack of information.

There is also a liability concern. If a client of mine wanted to do
something that I don't consider safe I'd let them know in writing.

I know one of the concerns is the expense of the mounting block. I'm
pretty sure I can at least partly deal with that if I can convince him
he needs to stick with the ANN's.

Are those ANN's UL listed? It's been a while but I believe that was a
concern at some point, long ago though. If they aren't listed, how about
Class-T fuses?

Regards, Joerg
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
A simple question, at least to phrase.

I'm looking for information on fuse wire specifications. Resistance,
current and especially voltage rating. I'm assuming the voltage rating
(DC) will depend on the insulation used and length but at the moment I
can't seem to find any data at all to use as a starting point.

I've a client who wants to use fuse wire to replace ANN150 style fuses
with fuse wire (cheaper, no/less mounting hardware I'm told).

Robert

Yeah, I know Google groups. Unfortunately my ISP has dropped usenet
and I've not had a chance yet to find an alternate server.

Do you mean like this stuff?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Distribution_and_Switchgear_Index/Fuse_Wire/

I've seen that used, and yes, it makes a terrible mess when it fuses, but
that can be constrained to a degree with fiberglass spaghetti tubing.

I don't know about the volts rating and stuff, this was in a battery
charger at 30, 40, or 50 amps, at usually 24 - 28V. But it sure wouldn't
be hard to do some experiments.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
R

radsett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg,
Hello Robert,


At 150 amp an arbitrary insulator may not help. It needs a controlled
'blowing environment' where it won't spew glowing metal around.

I can buy that. Lets see 150A @ 48V --> 7kW. OK, I'm being convinced,
especially since if it's going to blow it'll likely be 2 to 3 times
that. Even if it only takes 50mS that a kJ or so.
There is also a liability concern. If a client of mine wanted to do
something that I don't consider safe I'd let them know in writing.

I've done that before and will do it again, but if I can keep it from
happening in the first place I'd prefer it. Hmm, maybe a controlled
demonstration.
Are those ANN's UL listed? It's been a while but I believe that was a
concern at some point, long ago though. If they aren't listed, how about
Class-T fuses?

They appear to be. They are also pretty much the industry standard EV
fuse so they are readily available.

Thanks, this is a big help. You've helped crystallize my concerns.

Robert
 
R

radsett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich said:
Do you mean like this stuff?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Distribution_and_Switchgear_Index/Fuse_Wire/

I've seen that used, and yes, it makes a terrible mess when it fuses, but
that can be constrained to a degree with fiberglass spaghetti tubing.

It is beginning to sound like it might get quite involved. I certainly
don't want to see molten metal flying around.
I don't know about the volts rating and stuff, this was in a battery
charger at 30, 40, or 50 amps, at usually 24 - 28V. But it sure wouldn't
be hard to do some experiments.

It's beginning to look like that is going to be necessary.

Thanks
Robert
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
A simple question, at least to phrase.

I'm looking for information on fuse wire specifications. Resistance,
current and especially voltage rating. I'm assuming the voltage rating
(DC) will depend on the insulation used and length but at the moment I
can't seem to find any data at all to use as a starting point.

I've a client who wants to use fuse wire to replace ANN150 style fuses
with fuse wire (cheaper, no/less mounting hardware I'm told).

Robert

The ANN150 is a 125Vac/80Vdc 150A (2.5kA IR) fast acting industrial
fuse link for use in fork lift trucks,marine and aviation use. If
these fuses are blowing frequently maybe your client is not using the
right fuse for the application? Perhaps he is using a fast acting fuse
where a slow acting (ANL150) would be more suitable.

The voltage rating is NOT the critical rating of the fuse since the
purpose is essentially low voltage, high current interrupt rating, -
which will depend upon the type of load it is protecting. Because
these fuses are designed to rupture without spraying molten metal all
over the place attempting to replace them with ordinary fuse wire can
be problematic depending upon the actual mounting arrangement and
proximity to other equipment.

I note that the Bussmann ANN150 sells for around USD23 ea but this
price is over-inflated I think. Also, their fuse holder block for the
ANN150 would be extremely expensive as well (guess approx USD30 ea).

I would look for a cheaper alternative. For example the equivalent
fuse sells for AUD12 ea or AUD9 for 10+ in Australia,
but even here the fuse mounting block is expensive at AUD45 ea.

If your client is re-designing for quantity replacement, - such as for
battery and alternator protection - and does not specifically require
a 'fast acting' fuse, I would look at what Littelfuse call the "mega
fuse" which is much lower in cost for both fuse and mounting block.

Littelfuse MEG150 shown here
http://www.littelfuse.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/en/prod_parts.html?PartID=757&LFSESSION=toa089Dl77

These are available from SWE-CHECK http://www.swecheck.com.au/ see
page 38 (mega fuse) and page 131 (mega fuse holder) of the catalogue
for price details.

SWE-CHECK currently price the MEG150 at AUD12 (USD9) per 1 or AUD7.35
(USD5.50) per 100 and the fuse holder at AUD14 (USD10.50) ea.

Ross Herbert
 
R

radsett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ross said:
The ANN150 is a 125Vac/80Vdc 150A (2.5kA IR) fast acting industrial
fuse link for use in fork lift trucks,marine and aviation use. If
these fuses are blowing frequently maybe your client is not using the
right fuse for the application? Perhaps he is using a fast acting fuse
where a slow acting (ANL150) would be more suitable.

They are not blowing frequently.
The voltage rating is NOT the critical rating of the fuse since the
purpose is essentially low voltage, high current interrupt rating, -
which will depend upon the type of load it is protecting. Because
these fuses are designed to rupture without spraying molten metal all
over the place attempting to replace them with ordinary fuse wire can
be problematic depending upon the actual mounting arrangement and
proximity to other equipment.

Not THE critical rating but I still don't want operate beyond the
voltage rating.
I note that the Bussmann ANN150 sells for around USD23 ea but this
price is over-inflated I think. Also, their fuse holder block for the
ANN150 would be extremely expensive as well (guess approx USD30 ea).

I would look for a cheaper alternative. For example the equivalent
fuse sells for AUD12 ea or AUD9 for 10+ in Australia,
but even here the fuse mounting block is expensive at AUD45 ea.

If your client is re-designing for quantity replacement, - such as for
battery and alternator protection - and does not specifically require
a 'fast acting' fuse, I would look at what Littelfuse call the "mega
fuse" which is much lower in cost for both fuse and mounting block.

Nice thought, but at 32V I'm afraid the voltage is too low.

The ANNs and equivalents do seem to be on the high side but I've not
seen any cheaper DC fuses in the 150A/48V range. Three manufacturers
that I'm aware of Ferraz-Shawmut, Littlefuse and Cooper-Bussman. Any
others that anyone knows of? I think maybe that keeping the arc and
resulting molten metal contained may be the cause of the price
increment.

Thanks Ross

Robert
 
J

Jeff L

Jan 1, 1970
0
radsett said:
They are not blowing frequently.


Not THE critical rating but I still don't want operate beyond the
voltage rating.

You defiantly DO NOT WANT TO OPERATE PAST THE VOLTAGE RATING with dc. DC
will make them arc over, and keep them arcing over when they blow if
conditions are right - just like a DC welder. Check out the well documented
problems associated with the new 42V automotive standard. That said look to
see what's available for the new 42V car fuses. The smaller ones I have seen
have a little extra piece of plastic between the loop on a standard blade
fuse to help arrest the arc. They will be cheap with many amp ratings both
small and large if you can find a reasonable supplier.
 
B

bruce varley

Jan 1, 1970
0
radsett said:
A simple question, at least to phrase.

I'm looking for information on fuse wire specifications. Resistance,
current and especially voltage rating. I'm assuming the voltage rating
(DC) will depend on the insulation used and length but at the moment I
can't seem to find any data at all to use as a starting point.

I've a client who wants to use fuse wire to replace ANN150 style fuses
with fuse wire (cheaper, no/less mounting hardware I'm told).

Robert

Yeah, I know Google groups. Unfortunately my ISP has dropped usenet
and I've not had a chance yet to find an alternate server.

As a young engineer many years ago I was commissioning drives on a new
plant, in a fairly remote area of South America. Power dip, the fuses for
the main air compressor popped and the plant crashed. No spares could be
found and nothing similar was around. At the suggestion of one of the locals
I checked out the electricians shop in the nearby town, well more village.
What possible chance they'd have motor fuses in the megawatt range, but it
was our only hope. Anyway, waded through the chickens and kids in the yard,
the 'shop' was piled high with every sort of electrical and other junk. The
owner was a wily old fellow, god knows what his real business activities
were. Anyway, in my halting portuguese I explained the problem. He thought a
moment, then dug into a box of junk and came out with an ancient card
containing various sizes of lead wire, with fusing currents marked for each
one including motor rating, ranging up to well above above our required
power. We bought some wire, installed it across the fuse clamps and got the
drive away. Lucky it didn't fail again before the proper replacements
arrived, I have no idea whether a real fault would have been cleared
cleanly. Not good practice, but I got away with it that time....
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
As a young engineer many years ago I was commissioning drives on a new
plant, in a fairly remote area of South America. Power dip, the fuses for
the main air compressor popped and the plant crashed. No spares could be
found and nothing similar was around. At the suggestion of one of the locals
I checked out the electricians shop in the nearby town, well more village.
What possible chance they'd have motor fuses in the megawatt range, but it
was our only hope. Anyway, waded through the chickens and kids in the yard,
the 'shop' was piled high with every sort of electrical and other junk. The
owner was a wily old fellow, god knows what his real business activities
were. Anyway, in my halting portuguese I explained the problem. He thought a
moment, then dug into a box of junk and came out with an ancient card
containing various sizes of lead wire, with fusing currents marked for each
one including motor rating, ranging up to well above above our required
power. We bought some wire, installed it across the fuse clamps and got the
drive away. Lucky it didn't fail again before the proper replacements
arrived, I have no idea whether a real fault would have been cleared
cleanly. Not good practice, but I got away with it that time....

I don't know if it's an Arizona-specific kind of failure, but over the
years I've seen several automotive fuses fail apparently due to
vibration-induced work-hardening, then they crumble.

...Jim Thompson
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
As a young engineer many years ago I was commissioning drives on a new
plant, in a fairly remote area of South America. Power dip, the fuses for
the main air compressor popped and the plant crashed. No spares could be
found and nothing similar was around. At the suggestion of one of the locals
I checked out the electricians shop in the nearby town, well more village.
What possible chance they'd have motor fuses in the megawatt range, but it
was our only hope. Anyway, waded through the chickens and kids in the yard,
the 'shop' was piled high with every sort of electrical and other junk. The
owner was a wily old fellow, god knows what his real business activities
were. Anyway, in my halting portuguese I explained the problem. He thought a
moment, then dug into a box of junk and came out with an ancient card
containing various sizes of lead wire, with fusing currents marked for each
one including motor rating, ranging up to well above above our required
power. We bought some wire, installed it across the fuse clamps and got the
drive away. Lucky it didn't fail again before the proper replacements
arrived, I have no idea whether a real fault would have been cleared
cleanly. Not good practice, but I got away with it that time....

At least you didn't use pennies. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

radsett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
conditions are right - just like a DC welder. Check out the well documented
problems associated with the new 42V automotive standard. That said look to
see what's available for the new 42V car fuses. The smaller ones I have seen
have a little extra piece of plastic between the loop on a standard blade
fuse to help arrest the arc. They will be cheap with many amp ratings both
small and large if you can find a reasonable supplier.

Yeah, I've seen Littlefuses paper with the fied 32V automotive blade
fuses. That's an interesting thought, I've been a little leary of
using the 42 V bus fuses only because little fuses seems to be the only
supplier and I havn't seen them in use anywhere yet. THe latter may
simply be a lack of exposure on my part. I don't want to spec in an
orphan. Still it would be worth looking at non-blade fuses designed
for the same envoronment. THe blade fuses did meet the required specs
when last I looked

Thanks Jeff
Robert
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Jim,
I don't know if it's an Arizona-specific kind of failure, but over the
years I've seen several automotive fuses fail apparently due to
vibration-induced work-hardening, then they crumble.

Sometimes it's the holder. If it loosens after some years of vibration
the fuse and the holder become very hot. In a car that once reached the
point of the fuse falling out. Old Ford Cortina on a lone dirt road in
Scotland. Took me a half hour of walking around to find that fuse in the
dirt.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Jim,

Sometimes it's the holder. If it loosens after some years of vibration
the fuse and the holder become very hot. In a car that once reached the
point of the fuse falling out. Old Ford Cortina on a lone dirt road in
Scotland. Took me a half hour of walking around to find that fuse in the
dirt.

Regards, Joerg

Not in this case. The fuse had separated at the edge, with multiple
fragments, none of which looked "fused".

...Jim Thompson
 
D

David Harmon

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:46:04 GMT in sci.electronics.design, Rich
Grise said:
I've seen that used, and yes, it makes a terrible mess when it fuses, but
that can be constrained to a degree with fiberglass spaghetti tubing.

I don't know about the volts rating and stuff, this was in a battery
charger at 30, 40, or 50 amps, at usually 24 - 28V.

That sounds like the very last thing I would want in my battery
compartment where there might be hydrogen gas present.
 
A

Adrian Tuddenham

Jan 1, 1970
0
radsett said:
A simple question, at least to phrase.

I'm looking for information on fuse wire specifications. Resistance,
current and especially voltage rating. I'm assuming the voltage rating
(DC) will depend on the insulation used and length but at the moment I
can't seem to find any data at all to use as a starting point.

I've a client who wants to use fuse wire to replace ANN150 style fuses
with fuse wire (cheaper, no/less mounting hardware I'm told).

Robert

Yeah, I know Google groups. Unfortunately my ISP has dropped usenet
and I've not had a chance yet to find an alternate server.

Is there any inductance in the circuit or any of the loads?

Breaking an inductive DC fault is a different and exciting game. You
may even have to consider magnetic arc blow-outs and arc chutes (see
electric railway and tramway circuit breakers for more details).
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello David,
That sounds like the very last thing I would want in my battery
compartment where there might be hydrogen gas present.

And after the fire engines have left the insurance adjuster would
certainly have a few questions ...

Regards, Joerg
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 02:46:04 GMT in sci.electronics.design, Rich


That sounds like the very last thing I would want in my battery
compartment where there might be hydrogen gas present.

These are industrial chargers - they don't go in a battery compartment,
you bring the battery to it, like on your forklift. :)

And, if your batteries are outgassing, they're being abused.

Thanks,
Rich
 
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