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Fuel Cell cogen

N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anyone know of any web site that give the progress of residential fuel cell
units? General Electric were always going to bring one out next year, and
that was five years ago.
 
G

Gordon Reeder

Jan 1, 1970
0
News said:
Anyone know of any web site that give the progress of residential fuel
cell units? General Electric were always going to bring one out next
year, and that was five years ago.

The closest thing I know about is Freightliner is experimenting with
fuel cells in OTR trucks. Not for populsion, but for house power.
IIRC they are using a 5KW unit from Basler electric. Probably
still a bit spendy, but the closest thing to a deployed system
that I have seen.


--
Just my $0.02 worth. Hope it helps
Gordon Reeder
greeder
at: myself.com

Hey Dubya!
Unity means let's try to meet each other halfway
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gordon Reeder said:
The closest thing I know about is Freightliner
is experimenting with fuel cells in OTR trucks.
Not for populsion, but for house power.
IIRC they are using a 5KW unit from Basler
electric. Probably still a bit spendy, but the
closest thing to a deployed system
that I have seen.

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/index Fuel Cell Today did an article about 18
months ago on the progress world-wide and 80 companies were developing
residential fuel cells. The only major heating manufacturers were Valliant
of Germany, the rest were small dedicated fuel cell companies. I have heard
and read nothing of any advancements since. They are available for sale, but
for silly money and more experimental units rather than fully marketed
products. The problem is storing excess electrical power and the heat
produced to make them economically viable in running costs

New battery technology can act as a power store, unless they can modulate
the fuel input to electrcity demand, and thermal stores can store excess
heat. Then they maybe they will be viable - I think.

I have the impression many of these small fuel cell companies are setup to
get government research grants and little will come from them,
 
V

Vaughn

Jan 1, 1970
0
News said:
The problem is storing excess electrical power and the heat
produced to make them economically viable in running costs

New battery technology can act as a power store, unless they can modulate
the fuel input to electrcity demand, and thermal stores can store excess
heat. Then they maybe they will be viable - I think.

Batteries are expensive. I haven't seen the figures lately, but even if
the power to charge them were free, the cost per KWH is considerable. If we
ever do get residential co-gen fuel cell systems, grid tie will be the ticket.

Vaughn
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vaughn said:
Batteries are expensive. I haven't seen the figures
lately, but even if the power to charge them were
free, the cost per KWH is considerable.

The new Lithium Sulphur and poly batteries show promise of long charges and
cheap production, when development glitches and production is en-mass. The
auto industry will probably drive the prices down as hybrids are taking off,
and then pure electric cars will come along.
If we ever do get residential co-gen
fuel cell systems,
grid tie will be the ticket.

Vaughn

In the UK power companies are subsidising the installation of grid tied
cogen Stirling mCHP, micro Combined Heat & Power, now the official buzz word
here for single one residence units. This gives them a distributed power
station. One idea is for the supply company to remotely bring them in at
peak demand, if need be. This requires a thermal store to store the excess
heat. the peak time for heating and DHW just happens top fall in line with
peak electricity demand, so it may sort itself out.

The Stirling units produce 8kW of heat and 1.1kW of electricity. To produce
1 kW is approx 90% efficient and less than 2/5 of the harmful emissions of
grid produced, which is only 30-40% efficent in total.

In a new well insulated house 8kW should be fine for heating. That is where
the thermal store comes into play. It can be heated overnight to prepare
for the next day. Once a house is up to temperature the heating demands can
be as little as 1kW.

In the UK electricity is 4 times more expensive per kW as gas, so producing
electrity in your home with 90% efficient gas is worth it.
 
News said:
In the UK power companies are subsidising the installation of grid tied
cogen Stirling mCHP, micro Combined Heat & Power, now the official buzz word
here for single one residence units. This gives them a distributed power
station.

Under a kitchen counter, powered by natural gas.
One idea is for the supply company to remotely bring them in at peak demand,
if need be. This requires a thermal store to store the excess heat. the peak
time for heating and DHW just happens top fall in line with peak electricity
demand, so it may sort itself out.

The Stirling units produce 8kW of heat and 1.1kW of electricity. To produce
1 kW is approx 90% efficient and less than 2/5 of the harmful emissions of
grid produced, which is only 30-40% efficent in total.

As I recall, this came from John Corey and his friends at the Clever Fellows
Invention Consortium in Troy, NY, USA. When will we see it in the US? :)

Nick
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Under a kitchen counter, powered by natural gas.

Yep, or on the weall, as there will be a wall mounted unit. One will
provide on0demand DHW too.
As I recall, this came from John Corey
and his friends at the Clever Fellows
Invention Consortium in Troy, NY, USA.
When will we see it in the US? :)

Interesting, I never knew that. The idea of distributed power is not
exactly new.

A press release from Gledhill, the intelligent thermal store manufacturer.
They make some excellent stuff. I have one of their thermal stores, which
is a class act.
http://www.gledhill.net/water-storage/news/article14-mchp.htm

The first 550 houses are under construction right now. Powergen have been
doing trials for a few years with the Whispergen Stirling and Gledhill
thermal store. Another company, Microgen are to introduce a Stirling
version, probably using the Gledhill store too. Their unit is made by Rennai
in Japan, although designed in the UK.
http://www.microgendirect.com/main2.swf The Microgen has a free wheeling
piston Stirling with the power generating coils in the piston and around the
cylinder. The Japanese are very keen on this technology. The UK government
is actively promoting mCHP, although it can only ever be a medium term fix.
The long term has to be not using masses amount of power to begin with.

The gas bills are no different to using a normal condensing boiler, but the
electricity bills drop by around 1/3, depending on household. As
electricity is 4 times the price of gas here, that is a considerable saving
to the home owner. As time moves on and more energy efficient appliances
are being introduced, so savings may be greater on the electricity side as
the Stirling unit would provide more local power than drawing in off the
grid.

Then there is the environmental impact of less emissions and less power
infrastructure, which may mean less electricity pylons ruining the views of
the countryside.

See my recent post on this. The Gledhill web site has a few slide show
presentations and a page on the central control system that the power
provider may use to operate the units remotely.

Well we are moving towards hybrid cars and now hybrid heating and power
systems.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tony Wesley said:
[...]. One idea is for the supply company
to remotely bring them in at peak demand,
if need be. This requires a thermal store to
store the excess heat. the peak time for
heating and DHW just happens top fall in
line with peak electricity demand, so it may
sort itself out.

In my part of the world, peak demand for
electricity is during air conditioning season.

May be have an absorption system, assisted by solar panels. The UK system
was designed with a temperate climate in mind.
That 90% obviously includes the heat.
So the consumption is about 10kW.

But the heat is not wasted.
During air conditioning season, if the
8kW of heat can be completely vented
at zero energy cost, the efficiency is about
11%. But if you need to run the A/C to
remove the waste heat...

In your part of the world a re-think is required.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
As I recall, this came from John Corey and his friends at the Clever Fellows
Invention Consortium in Troy, NY, USA. When will we see it in the US? :)

Nick


From Whispergen site. 80,000 units to be manufactured in 5 years for
starters:
2004 E.ON UK signs order with Whisper Tech for commercial quantity of AC
WhisperGens and commits to purchasing at least 80,000 units over the next 5
years
2004 Whisper Tech invites registrations of interest from prospective
manufacturers
2004 WhisperGen chosen for one of the world's largest residential 'combined
heat and power' installations in Manchester and wins prestigious building
industry award
<<<<
 
S

Steve Young

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here's one I've been watching for a couple years.
Looks like they're targeting the residential market and aren't too far
away. 25kW of heat with 4.6kW of electricity.
http://www.enginion.com/en/web/produktedienstleistungen/Start_2.htm

OBTW Nick, your suggestion of using an old 275 gallon fuel oil tank for
heat storage has been working super duper. I stood it on end on a 10" inch
high insulated wood platform. This gives me four ports at different levels
and it is large enough to be plenty useful.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here's one I've been watching for a couple years.
Looks like they're targeting the residential market and aren't too far
away. 25kW of heat with 4.6kW of electricity.

I'm not much wiser after reading this with no detailed technical
description. It is a steam engine, highly efficient and can give 24kW of
heat and 4.6kW of electricity, powered by gas or oil or whatever. It
appears too large fro a single house giving off 25kW of heat appear too much
and 4.6kW of electricity will be feeding the grid for most of the time. It
maybe fine for an apartment block, but the high initial capital cost and
ongoing maintenance cost may make it unviable, or just not worth the hassle.
 
S

Steve Young

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Steve Young" <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote in message
I'm not much wiser after reading this with no detailed technical
description. It is a steam engine, highly efficient and can give 24kW
of heat and 4.6kW of electricity, powered by gas or oil or whatever.
It appears too large fro a single house giving off 25kW of heat appear
too much and 4.6kW of electricity will be feeding the grid for most of
the time. It maybe fine for an apartment block, but the high initial
capital cost and ongoing maintenance cost may make it unviable, or
just not worth the hassle.

Yes, I'm a little disappointed they took down the really good
technical information they had up last year about the process. As I
recall, it's an innovative process with the use of ceramics.

I'm guessing they may be angling for heat storage, and then, on demand
electric peak leveling by the utility. The much better information they
had on the unit last year, indicated an Ethernet interface. I wish I would
have saved the pages.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve Young said:
Yes, I'm a little disappointed they took down the really good
technical information they had up last year about the process. As I
recall, it's an innovative process with the use of ceramics.

I'm guessing they may be angling for heat storage, and then, on demand
electric peak leveling by the utility. The much better information they
had on the unit last year, indicated an Ethernet interface. I wish I would
have saved the pages.

" Enginion is one of the fastest growing companies in the eastern part of
Germany. Its shareholders are the management team, E-ON Venture Partners
GmbH (E.ON concern, Europe's largest utility provider) and TEA GmbH (VW
concern). "

E.ON own Powergen, a power company, in the UK, who have partnered up with
Whisper Tech in NZ to make the WhipserGen Stirling mCHP unit, which is being
curently implemented in 550 new homes in Manchester.

I wonder which will win? The SteamCell or the Stirling? The SteamCell
appears a replacement for the IC engine too. They also claim far greater
efficiency than a fuel cell.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve Young said:
Yes, I'm a little disappointed they took down the really good
technical information they had up last year about the process. As I
recall, it's an innovative process with the use of ceramics.

I'm guessing they may be angling for heat storage, and then, on demand
electric peak leveling by the utility. The much better information they
had on the unit last year, indicated an Ethernet interface. I wish I would
have saved the pages.

"The concept of the SteamCell is based on a completely enclosed water and
steam cycle. A high-pressure pump compresses water from a small tank. In
heat exchangers, the water is converted into high-energy steam that is then
expanded in a rotation machine while releasing energy. After expansion, the
steam condenses and flows as fresh water back into the tank. The described
cycle consists of the following components: "

This rotation machine? Is that a rotary type of wankle affair, or just
plain pistons? Their early experimental machines were pistons.

If this machine is as efficient as they make out this is a direct
replacement for the current IC engine. They aiming to have it in buses,
trucks and large cars to provide all the ancillary power and say they are
negotiating with large auto makers, presumably VW, as the company was
initially a part of VW.
 
D

danny burstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
(excerpting from some company promo or another)
"The concept of the SteamCell is based on a completely enclosed water and
steam cycle. A high-pressure pump compresses water from a small tank.

"compresses water"? I sure hope that's a quote out of context..
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
danny burstein said:
(excerpting from some company promo or another)


"compresses water"? I sure hope that's a quote out of context..

I think they mean pressurises. Probably a German converting to English.
 
S

Steve Young

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nick, your suggestion of using an old 275 gallon fuel oil tank for
heat storage has been working super duper. I stood it on end on a 10"
inch high insulated wood platform. This gives me four ports at
different levels and it is large enough to be plenty useful.

As I think about it Nick, if one could sit 3 tanks side by side, then
couple them so they all store equally, without using a pump, (I'm using
1/2" copper with up to 10gpm flow), what was plenty useful, now becomes
plenty meaningful.

WOO HOO!

:)x

PS Now you can make hay when the sun shines, just store it :)
for when come rain or shine
 
N

Nick Hull

Jan 1, 1970
0
"News" <[email protected]> said:
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/index Fuel Cell Today did an article about 18
months ago on the progress world-wide and 80 companies were developing
residential fuel cells. The only major heating manufacturers were Valliant
of Germany, the rest were small dedicated fuel cell companies. I have heard
and read nothing of any advancements since. They are available for sale, but
for silly money and more experimental units rather than fully marketed
products. The problem is storing excess electrical power and the heat
produced to make them economically viable in running costs

New battery technology can act as a power store, unless they can modulate
the fuel input to electrcity demand, and thermal stores can store excess
heat. Then they maybe they will be viable - I think.

I thought the big advantage to fuel cells was that they automatically
use fuel to match the electrical demand, no batteries needed since you
can operate them at a trickle.
 
N

News

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nick Hull said:
I thought the big advantage to fuel cells was that they automatically
use fuel to match the electrical demand, no batteries needed since you
can operate them at a trickle.

That is true with some models. There are so many variants of fuel cell
about. They do create heat so,a thermal store is no doubt necessary to store
the heat for later use.

The SteamCell claim the same modulated operation, but they claim TEN times
less fuel used than a fuel cell. It can also be used for auto use, maybe in
a hybrid or just by turning an alternator and driving a motor or two and
then storing excess energy in a battery pack.

The fuel cell in autos is to produce electricity to turn a drive motor. If
correct, a Steam Cell can do that far cheaply and available right now with a
mixture of new and old technology.

All these technologies require careful feasibility studies, but all appear
viable to some degree or other.

The SteamCell is also aimed at large autos, trucks and buses running the
ancillary equipment. That means the engine can be left alone to turn the
wheels only, no alternator, power steering pump, a/c pump, etc, simplifying
the engine and maintenance. That means an engine designed for a particular
vehicle need only be air cooled and a lot smaller, for superior packaging
and location in the vehicle. The steam cell can economically run the
ancillaries when the engine is off. That mean the SteamCell could pre-heat
the engine (if water cooled) before a cold start up.
Free men own guns, slaves don't

* I am a free man and have never fired a gun.
* I am free to walk the streets without being hindered by people with guns.
;-)
 
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