FTL (Faster Than Light) communications?

[Ken Smith]

Not if the measurement is done correctly. Consider:

[... ascii art snipped ...]

How far away is the scope? Who's looking at it?

How do we know that the signal on the scope isn't just the result of
crosstalk from the input side of the experiment to the output?

How can we prove that the display on the scope really became valid when it
claims it did? IE: Could we have a semi-fed cat situation. Since the
effort here is to prove something about quantum physics, you can't just
assume the current theory is right because that leads to circular logic.
You've got to use some really bullet proof logic to prove FTL.

 

[John Fields]

Not if the measurement is done correctly. Consider:

[... ascii art snipped ...]

How far away is the scope? Who's looking at it?

---
Why should either of those matter? All the scope is doing is
"recording" the time between two events, one _known_ to occur before
the other, and the looker is merely observing whether the leading edge
of a repeating pulse moves in a certain direction or not. Why it may
or not is unimportant to the observer, who only cares _if_ it does.
---

How do we know that the signal on the scope isn't just the result of
crosstalk from the input side of the experiment to the output?

---
We know what we're doing and we're smart enough to know how to set up
our equipment properly.
---

How can we prove that the display on the scope really became valid when it
claims it did? IE: Could we have a semi-fed cat situation. Since the
effort here is to prove something about quantum physics, you can't just
assume the current theory is right because that leads to circular logic.

---
We assume the current theory is right, so far, because it has never
been disproved (well, except for photon entanglement) and then we
carry on with our carefully thought out and executed experiment to
determine whether our SSD really works. There's nothing magic about
it, if it takes a certain amount of time for a pulse to go from point
A to point B and you can, somehow, shorten that time without altering
the transmission medium, then you've exceeded C for that medium.

You've got to use some really bullet proof logic to prove FTL.

Check out Cherenkov radiation. C gets violated all the time.

 

[Ken Smith]

[....] [...]
How can we prove that the display on the scope really became valid when it
claims it did? IE: Could we have a semi-fed cat situation. Since the
effort here is to prove something about quantum physics, you can't just
assume the current theory is right because that leads to circular logic.

This is the part of my point you didn't get. To pick a single example
assume you are doing an experiment where the results could prove either
(A) FTL or a (B) mistake on page 7 in the big book on QM. If you don't
rule out the flaw in QM the best your experiment can do is prove either
(A) or (B) must be true. It can't prove (A)

and then we
carry on with our carefully thought out and executed experiment to
determine whether our SSD really works. There's nothing magic about
it, if it takes a certain amount of time for a pulse to go from point
A to point B and you can, somehow, shorten that time without altering
the transmission medium, then you've exceeded C for that medium.

You have to prove that you have really shortened the time and not created
some sort of semi-fed cat situation.

Check out Cherenkov radiation. C gets violated all the time.

I don't think so C is the speed of light in free space. Cherenkov happens
when something's speed exceeds the speed of light within the medium. It
all happens at less than C.

 

[John Fields]

[....] [...]
How can we prove that the display on the scope really became valid when it
claims it did? IE: Could we have a semi-fed cat situation. Since the
effort here is to prove something about quantum physics, you can't just
assume the current theory is right because that leads to circular logic.

This is the part of my point you didn't get. To pick a single example
assume you are doing an experiment where the results could prove either
(A) FTL or a (B) mistake on page 7 in the big book on QM. If you don't
rule out the flaw in QM the best your experiment can do is prove either
(A) or (B) must be true. It can't prove (A)

---
Nothing can _prove_ A, but the very fact that the result of the
experiment yielded the possibility that A _might_ be true certainly is
a starting point for more rigorous study of the purported SSD. And QM
---

You have to prove that you have really shortened the time and not created
some sort of semi-fed cat situation.

---
Give me an example of a "semi-fed cat situation" which would result in
a false indication of FTL in the experiment, please?
---

I don't think so C is the speed of light in free space. Cherenkov happens
when something's speed exceeds the speed of light within the medium. It
all happens at less than C.

---
You're splitting hairs. 'C', 'c', what does it matter?

The _fact_ is that superluminal velocities _can_ be and _have_ been
achieved in different mediums, much as supersonic velocities have.

Do you doubt that quantum entanglement is superluminal and occurs in
vacuo?

 

[Ken Smith]

Give me an example of a "semi-fed cat situation" which would result in
a false indication of FTL in the experiment, please?

In this case the scope or to be more exact parts of it would be the
semi-fed cat.

FTL communications implies that information got to the scope before a beam
of light could have. You do not know the true state of the scope until
you look at it. This is when you make the "measurement" of the state of
the scope.

The trouble is that you actually make that measurement after light could
have gotten there. You assume that things are working like they always do
and that the scope doesn't suddenly change its story about the past. This
is reasonable under the current view of QM.

FTL communications, however, can be troublesome for the current view. The
current view doesn't rule out the semi-fed cat. The semi-fed cat is just
too weird and, it was discovered, not needed to make the predictions come
out right. If it is discovered that somehow the scope seems to be
changing its story, a fault in QM and not the FTL communications is
proven.


If matters a whole bunch. "C" is the top speed of communications in the
universe. It just happens that light goes that fast. Other types of
communication also have "C" as an upper limit. "c" on the otherhand
depends on the medium. It may even be that somethings still work at "C"
through the medium that slows light.

[...]

Do you doubt that quantum entanglement is superluminal and occurs in
vacuo?

I find FTL communications about as troubling as semi-fed cats.
Entanglement may or may not provide a means to do FTL. So far, no-one I
know of have communicated any information via it. If they do, I will find
Entanglement troubling.

 

[John Fields]

In this case the scope or to be more exact parts of it would be the
semi-fed cat.

FTL communications implies that information got to the scope before a beam
of light could have. You do not know the true state of the scope until
you look at it. This is when you make the "measurement" of the state of
the scope.

---
I don't see why when the scope gets its trigger matters. Think about
the experiment this way:

The two fastest runners on earth, Racer A and Racer B, are equally
matched, consistent, and always run the same distance in the same
time. Now, for the sake of an experiment, Racer B is forced to wear
running shoes which weigh one ounce more than Racer A's. As a result
of that, Racer A crosses the finish line before Racer B, starting a
clock which stops when Racer B crosses the finish line, and the clock
_always_ reads 100ms when it stops, no matter how many races are run.

Now, to determine whether it's possible for Runner A to run faster
than his "limit", he's given a substantial hit of speed and the race
run again. This time, at the end of the race, the clock reads one
second. Knowing that good old, dependable, Runner B ran the race as
he always had before leads to the conclusion that Runner A ran faster
than he normally would have.

Notice that the clock didn't care about how fast Runner A was going or
how long it took it to get to the finish line, all it did was record
the difference in time it took for the two runners to cross the finish
line.

But, just to keep everybody happy, and since we don't really know how
the speed is going to affect Runner A, what we do is set up a
concurrently running second experiment which measures the time it
takes for Racer B to run the race and use that to make sure that the
larger than normal time difference at the finish line wasn't due to
Runner B going more slowly than he had before. We could, of course,
also attempt to directly measure the time it took Runner A to run the
race, but we save that for a later experiment since we can derive it
from the results of the two we ran.
---

The trouble is that you actually make that measurement after light could
have gotten there. You assume that things are working like they always do
and that the scope doesn't suddenly change its story about the past. This
is reasonable under the current view of QM.

---
The scope doesn't care about the past; all it's doing is getting
triggered by an event.
---

FTL communications, however, can be troublesome for the current view. The
current view doesn't rule out the semi-fed cat. The semi-fed cat is just
too weird and, it was discovered, not needed to make the predictions come
out right. If it is discovered that somehow the scope seems to be
changing its story, a fault in QM and not the FTL communications is
proven.

If matters a whole bunch. "C" is the top speed of communications in the
universe.

---
We don't know that for sure, it's just that _we_ can't seem to find
anything going faster because _we're_ bound, so far, by what we don't
know.
---

It just happens that light goes that fast.

---
Only as the limit allowed in a vacuum, and it varies just like
everything else does depending on the density of the medium it's
traversing.
---

Other types of
communication also have "C" as an upper limit.

---
_Any_ types of communication, so far.
---

"c" on the otherhand
depends on the medium. It may even be that somethings still work at "C"
through the medium that slows light.

---
Assuming that things which work at C can't go slower than C, then it
seems reasonable to assume that the "slowing" isn't a slowing at all,
but the extra time required for the thing to bounce around in the
medium before it finally comes out.
---

I find FTL communications about as troubling as semi-fed cats.
Entanglement may or may not provide a means to do FTL. So far, no-one I
know of have communicated any information via it. If they do, I will find
Entanglement troubling.

---
I'd find it exhilarating!

Just imagine, a crack in the door that's been closed to us since the
beginning of time!

Ultimately, the elimination of one of the barriers that keeps us from
going to the stars...

 

[John Fields]

I do. Nothing moves as a result of quantum entanglement, and it can't
be used for FTL communication.

---
Maybe not yet, but check out:

http://physicsweb.org/article/news/8/6/18

and note, in particular:

"To demonstrate open-destination teleportation, Pan and co-workers
first teleported the unknown quantum state of a single photon onto a
superposition of three photons. They were then able to read out this
teleported state at any one of the three photons by performing a
measurement on the other two photons."

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Fields <jfields@austininstrum

"To demonstrate open-destination teleportation, Pan and co-workers first
teleported the unknown quantum state of a single photon onto a
superposition of three photons. They were then able to read out this
teleported state at any one of the three photons by performing a
measurement on the other two photons."

THREE photons? Is this the birth of the TRI-corder?

 

[Kevin Aylward]

---
Maybe not yet, but check out:

http://physicsweb.org/article/news/8/6/18

and note, in particular:

"To demonstrate open-destination teleportation, Pan and co-workers
first teleported the unknown quantum state of a single photon onto a
superposition of three photons. They were then able to read out this
teleported state at any one of the three photons by performing a
measurement on the other two photons."

But none of this implies useful signal FTL communication, as you seem to
be suggesting that by the "Maybe not yet, but check out".

Its an accepted given by all pro physicists that entanglement can not be
used to send FTL signals. Its simply not debatable under QM, unless QM
is wrong. Its a basic result proved based on the postulates of QM. There
is no escape from this mathematical proof, unless QM is wrong. So, why
this FTL stuff keeps getting churned out is beyond me. Its simply not
allowed under accepted QM. Period.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
lueyonder.co.uk>) about 'FTL (Faster Than Light) communications?', on
Sat, 14 Aug 2004:

Its simply not debatable under QM, unless QM
is wrong.

Like everything else in science, QM is wrong. We just haven't found
anything more correct yet, and when we do, that will be wrong as well.

 

[John Fields]

But none of this implies useful signal FTL communication, as you seem to
be suggesting that by the "Maybe not yet, but check out".

---
I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. The "Maybe not yet" part should
have made that clear, since to imply otherwise I would have written
something like "Oh, yeah? then check out..."

The "Maybe not yet" part was meant to imply that how to do FTL _will_
eventually come to light (groannn :^), and the "but check out" part
was just a pointer to another brick coming out of the wall.
---

Its an accepted given by all pro physicists that entanglement can not be
used to send FTL signals. Its simply not debatable under QM, unless QM
is wrong. Its a basic result proved based on the postulates of QM. There
is no escape from this mathematical proof, unless QM is wrong. So, why
this FTL stuff keeps getting churned out is beyond me. Its simply not
allowed under accepted QM. Period.

---
Yes, and to pro clerics neither was anything but a terracentric
universe allowed up until a very few years ago.

It's probably a good thing that not _everyone_ accepts the edicts of
current authority as immutable truth, since there's still a lot out
there we don't know anything about, and looking for it in the face of
naysayers and, sometimes finding it, is fun.

 

[Rich Grise]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
lueyonder.co.uk>) about 'FTL (Faster Than Light) communications?', on
Sat, 14 Aug 2004:

Like everything else in science, QM is wrong. We just haven't found
anything more correct yet, and when we do, that will be wrong as well.

I have, but nobody seems to want it.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Ken Smith]

---
I don't see why when the scope gets its trigger matters. Think about
the experiment this way:

The two fastest runners on earth, Racer A and Racer B, are equally
matched, consistent, and always run the same distance in the same
time.

[... using runner instead of photons ..]

he always had before leads to the conclusion that Runner A ran faster
than he normally would have.

You've missed the whole point of my argument. Switching to human runners
doesn't help. Lets try this:


You have some electronics in one room with a push button on it. In
another room you have two devices that display numbers. You believe that
the numbers these devices display are the time since Jan 1, 1980 until a
pulse arrives at each input.

You press the button and go look in the other room. When you get there
they show a difference of 1 second. From this you would conclude that the
travel time down the two paths is really one secon different.

You believe that your measuring method is correct. You also believe that
this 1 second difference is proof of FTL.

Lets further assume that your currently accepted theory of physics say
both that the equipment is indeed measuring the speed correctly and that
FLT is imposible. You have just proven that this theory is wrong.

Lets say, there is another theory of physics which states that the entire
contents of that other room does not exist unless you are looking at it.
Under this theory, the equipment and the measurement even the windows and
drapes and potted plants wink in and out of existance. This theory is so
weird you've rejected because (A) its weird (B) you have another theory
that worked perfectly.

Now you are in a bind. The theory you have been using is now proven to be
false and the truely weird one may be all you've got. Under this truely
weird theory, there was no information in the room at all until you opened
the door. In this theory FTL is still imposible.





I agree we can't really be sure its right but that is what I mean by "C".

Exactly "C" is an upper limit.

I agree

---


---
Assuming that things which work at C can't go slower than C, then it
seems reasonable to assume that the "slowing" isn't a slowing at all,
but the extra time required for the thing to bounce around in the
medium before it finally comes out.

It could also be that light never really travels at "C". It may always
travel at "c".

I'd find it exhilarating!

Just imagine, a crack in the door that's been closed to us since the
beginning of time!

Ultimately, the elimination of one of the barriers that keeps us from
going to the stars...

Warping through space would be nice. Some of the other things it implies
would be less so, I think.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

[...]
Give me an example of a "semi-fed cat situation" which would
result in a false indication of FTL in the experiment, please?

In this case the scope or to be more exact parts of it would be the
semi-fed cat.

FTL communications implies that information got to the scope before
a beam of light could have. You do not know the true state of the
scope until you look at it. This is when you make the
"measurement" of the state of the scope.

---
I don't see why when the scope gets its trigger matters. Think about
the experiment this way:

The two fastest runners on earth, Racer A and Racer B, are equally
matched, consistent, and always run the same distance in the same
time.

[... using runner instead of photons ..]

he always had before leads to the conclusion that Runner A ran faster
than he normally would have.

You've missed the whole point of my argument. Switching to human
runners doesn't help. Lets try this:


You have some electronics in one room with a push button on it. In
another room you have two devices that display numbers. You believe
that the numbers these devices display are the time since Jan 1, 1980
until a pulse arrives at each input.

You press the button and go look in the other room. When you get
there they show a difference of 1 second. From this you would
conclude that the travel time down the two paths is really one secon
different.

You believe that your measuring method is correct. You also believe
that this 1 second difference is proof of FTL.

Lets further assume that your currently accepted theory of physics say
both that the equipment is indeed measuring the speed correctly and
that FLT is imposible. You have just proven that this theory is
wrong.

Lets say, there is another theory of physics which states that the
entire contents of that other room does not exist unless you are
looking at it. Under this theory, the equipment and the measurement
even the windows and drapes and potted plants wink in and out of
existance. This theory is so weird you've rejected because (A) its
weird (B) you have another theory that worked perfectly.

Now you are in a bind. The theory you have been using is now proven
to be false and the truely weird one may be all you've got. Under
this truely weird theory, there was no information in the room at all
until you opened the door. In this theory FTL is still imposible.





I agree we can't really be sure its right but that is what I mean by
"C".

Exactly "C" is an upper limit.

I agree

---


---
Assuming that things which work at C can't go slower than C, then it
seems reasonable to assume that the "slowing" isn't a slowing at all,
but the extra time required for the thing to bounce around in the
medium before it finally comes out.

Essentially, yes, but technically implemented differently.

It could also be that light never really travels at "C". It may
always travel at "c".

In fact, its the other way round photons *always* travel at "C", i.e.
the 3e8 max speed in vacuume. Atoms consist of 99.99etc% of vacuume.
Photons can't slow down, ever. The speed of light in a medium is an
*apparent* speed. Atomic electrons absorb photons, go to a hifger energy
state, then after a delay, emit a new photon. It is this delay that
makes for an effective slower velocity. You know its the whole exited
electrons is an atom bit, Balmer series and all that jazz.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

---
I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. The "Maybe not yet" part should
have made that clear, since to imply otherwise I would have written
something like "Oh, yeah? then check out..."

The "Maybe not yet" part was meant to imply that how to do FTL _will_
eventually come to light (groannn :^), and the "but check out" part
was just a pointer to another brick coming out of the wall.

My point being that, sure, in a bigger scheme of things QM might be
wrong, but non of these researchers/experiments are actually claiming
that what they are doing violates QM in any way to date. They are just
presenting some of the strange aspects of QM as it stands.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Ken Smith]

In fact, its the other way round photons *always* travel at "C", i.e.
the 3e8 max speed in vacuume.

Yes, existing theory.

[...]

*apparent* speed. Atomic electrons absorb photons, go to a hifger energy
state, then after a delay, emit a new photon.

Proving that it is really a new photon is a bit tricky. They don't have
serial numbers.

When a narrow radiation line is passed through glass, the line doesn't
seem to get any wider. This means that the new photon must have exactly
the same energy as the old one. When a tight laser beam is passed through
glass it comes out as a tight beam. This means that the exact energy and
direction of the photon must be remembered (stored) at the location of the
electron for a brief time.

That's a lot of stored bits of information. I've often wondered if
Shannon has any trouble with storing it.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

In fact, its the other way round photons *always* travel at "C", i.e.
the 3e8 max speed in vacuume.

Yes, existing theory.

[...]

*apparent* speed. Atomic electrons absorb photons, go to a hifger
energy state, then after a delay, emit a new photon.

Proving that it is really a new photon is a bit tricky. They don't
have serial numbers.

Oh, you mean like when the photon disappears (gets absorbed) it actually
runs around inside the electron for a bit, then pops out again. Maybe.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Ken Smith]

In fact, its the other way round photons *always* travel at "C", i.e.
the 3e8 max speed in vacuume.

Yes, existing theory.

[...]

*apparent* speed. Atomic electrons absorb photons, go to a hifger
energy state, then after a delay, emit a new photon.

Proving that it is really a new photon is a bit tricky. They don't
have serial numbers.

Oh, you mean like when the photon disappears (gets absorbed) it actually
runs around inside the electron for a bit, then pops out again. Maybe.

Something effectively like that. Of course what you've described is a bit
more "classical" than I'd expect it to really be.

 

[Mjolinor]

In fact, its the other way round photons *always* travel at "C", i.e.
the 3e8 max speed in vacuume.

Yes, existing theory.

[...]

*apparent* speed. Atomic electrons absorb photons, go to a hifger
energy state, then after a delay, emit a new photon.

Proving that it is really a new photon is a bit tricky. They don't
have serial numbers.

Oh, you mean like when the photon disappears (gets absorbed) it actually
runs around inside the electron for a bit, then pops out again. Maybe.

No it doesn't, it becomes a part of the track that the electron is riding on
giving the electron a longer path and therefore a higher orbit.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

[...]
In fact, its the other way round photons *always* travel at "C",
i.e. the 3e8 max speed in vacuume.

Yes, existing theory.

[...]
*apparent* speed. Atomic electrons absorb photons, go to a hifger
energy state, then after a delay, emit a new photon.

Proving that it is really a new photon is a bit tricky. They don't
have serial numbers.

Oh, you mean like when the photon disappears (gets absorbed) it
actually runs around inside the electron for a bit, then pops out
again. Maybe.

No it doesn't, it becomes a part of the track that the electron is
riding on giving the electron a longer path and therefore a higher
orbit.

These words makes no sense at all. A photon isn't a tract. This is
gibberish.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.