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frequency terminologies

  • Thread starter zouhaier ghorbel
  • Start date
Z

zouhaier ghorbel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi

someone can tell me waht's the difference between "frequency corner" and
"center frequency"
Thank you for your help.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi

someone can tell me waht's the difference between "frequency corner" and
"center frequency"

If you imagine an elongated triaglular shape, pointed end upward, the
centre frequency would correspond to a vertical line dropping down
through the apex of the triangle. Now imagine someone comes along and
slices off the top of the apex. There's now a flat top with two sides
which suddenly drop away quickly. These 'shoulders' are analogous to
the corner frequencies. The drop on the right is the upper corner
frequency and the drop on the left is the lower corner frequency. The
centre frequency remains unchanged, being the mid-way point between
the corners. Establishing the precise location of a corner frequency
in the case of a genuine frequency peak is a little more difficult -
but not much.
Easier to explain with a diagram, really.
 
A

Active8

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you imagine an elongated triaglular shape, pointed end upward, the
centre frequency would correspond to a vertical line dropping down
through the apex of the triangle.

Can I hang a weight on it and use it for a metronome or should I
wait for that prick with the apex cutter to finish up?
Now imagine someone comes along and
slices off the top of the apex. There's now a flat top with two sides
which suddenly drop away quickly. These 'shoulders' are analogous to
the corner frequencies.

But Mr. Wizard, what if it's a high or low pass filter?
The drop on the right is the upper corner
frequency and the drop on the left is the lower corner frequency.

Those are passband skirts. The corners are the corners.
The
centre frequency remains unchanged, being the mid-way point between
the corners.

Only geometrically when plotted on a log scale. Numerically, a band
pass filter having -3dB points of say, 100 MHz and 125 MHz has a
center frequency of 111.8 MHz, not 112 MHz.
Establishing the precise location of a corner frequency
in the case of a genuine frequency peak is a little more difficult -
but not much.

How 'bout an example? My BS detector is going off full-tilt here.
Easier to explain with a diagram, really.

Without a stinkin' diagram.
 
A

Active8

Jan 1, 1970
0
Can I hang a weight on it and use it for a metronome or should I
wait for that prick with the apex cutter to finish up?

Oh yeah. Metronomes are upside-down pendulums.

Never mind.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
How 'bout an example? My BS detector is going off full-tilt here.

Then you will no doubt be able to assist the OP with a more accurate
explanation, then.
Without a stinkin' diagram.

Indeed. By all means let's hear it....
 
A

Active8

Jan 1, 1970
0
Then you will no doubt be able to assist the OP with a more accurate
explanation, then.


Indeed. By all means let's hear it....
"Establishing the precise location of a corner frequency
in the case of a genuine frequency peak is a little more difficult
-
but not much."

I was hoping to find out what the hell you meant by the above
statement. How you would nail down the corners with and without a
"genuine" peak. I don't even see where that constraint even figures
in.
 
H

hannibal

Jan 1, 1970
0
i get really confused with frequencies terminologies.
actually i am working on spreadsheet for Tx so first i am trying to get
familiar with terminologies so i strart with taking a look to Rx spreadsheet
that's alrady done by someone else.
In excel Rx spreadsheet, sometime:
Device frequency corner= Center Frequency+ 1/2 (Device3dB Bandwidth at
output)

and sometime:
Device frequency corner= Center Frequency+ Device3dB Bandwidth at output

i don't know why?
please advice
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that hannibal <[email protected]>
wrote (in <[email protected]>) about 'frequency terminologies',
i get really confused with frequencies terminologies. actually i am
working on spreadsheet for Tx so first i am trying to get familiar with
terminologies so i strart with taking a look to Rx spreadsheet
that's alrady done by someone else.
In excel Rx spreadsheet, sometime:
Device frequency corner= Center Frequency+ 1/2 (Device3dB Bandwidth at
output)

That's right, except it should be 'Device corner frequency' or even
'Device upper corner frequency', if it's a band-pass filter, because
there is another -3 dB frequency below the centre frequency. The -3 dB
frequency is regarded as the edge of the pass-band, where the response
'turns the corner' to its steep decrease.
and sometime:
Device frequency corner= Center Frequency+ Device3dB Bandwidth at
output

That what we experienced engineers know as an 'error'.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Establishing the precise location of a corner frequency
in the case of a genuine frequency peak is a little more difficult
-
but not much."

I was hoping to find out what the hell you meant by the above
statement. How you would nail down the corners with and without a
"genuine" peak. I don't even see where that constraint even figures

Well, *with* a genuine peak, the corners are, IIRC the -3db points
either side. Without a peak? What, you mean like as in the type of
'double-hunched' response you typically get with overcoupling two
tuned circuits? Yes, that's trickier. Hell, whatever, by all means let
the OP have *your* definition, Mike. *I* might learn something as
well. God knows I can use it!
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi

someone can tell me waht's the difference between "frequency corner" and
"center frequency"
Thank you for your help.

---
Me can.

If you have a radio or a stereo with what ISTR is called a "parametric
equalizer", if you turn the bass and the treble down, and leave the
midrange up, then the midrange frequency which will come in the loudest
will be the center frequency.

If you turn the bass down and leave everything else the same, then the
frequency where the bass will be half as loud as everything else will be
the corner frequency, and if you turn the treble down and leave
everything else the same, the frequency where the treble will be half as
loud as everything else will be the corner frequency.

Also, if you turn the midrange down while leaving everything else the
same, the frequency which will be the least loud will be the center
frequency.
 
A

Active8

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that hannibal <[email protected]>
wrote (in <[email protected]>) about 'frequency terminologies',


That's right, except it should be 'Device corner frequency' or even
'Device upper corner frequency', if it's a band-pass filter, because
there is another -3 dB frequency below the centre frequency. The -3 dB
frequency is regarded as the edge of the pass-band, where the response
'turns the corner' to its steep decrease.

That what we experienced engineers know as an 'error'.
But in a symetric filter, the center freq is the geometric mean of
the upper and lower cutoff freqs, not the arithmetic mean.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earth
But in a symetric filter, the center freq is the geometric mean of the
upper and lower cutoff freqs, not the arithmetic mean.

Yes, but the difference is very often indeed quite negligible. We are
talking '-3 dB', not '-3.000000 dB'. Consider a single-tuned circuit at
500 kHz, with a -3 dB bandwidth of 10 kHz. Sqrt(495 x 505) = 499.97....
kHz.
 
A

Active8

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, *with* a genuine peak,

I thought maybe you meant that a genuine peak was a bp with such a
high Q that you couldn't see that flat top without zooming in and
therefore couldn't find the corners.
the corners are, IIRC the -3db points
either side.

No. The corners are the estimates of those points. They're found by
drawing lines along the passband skirts that approximates a
constant straight line rolloff and another line along the top of
the passband. The intersections are the corners. The steeper the
skirts, the more closely the corners approximate the -3dB freqs AKA
cutoff freqs.
Without a peak? What, you mean like as in the type of
'double-hunched' response you typically get with overcoupling two
tuned circuits? Yes, that's trickier. Hell, whatever, by all means let
the OP have *your* definition, Mike. *I* might learn something as
well. God knows I can use it!

You were off to a good start. You at least drew a verbal picture.
You f'd me up with that "genuine" peak stuff. I thought you read
something somewhere that I just didn't run into myself. Plus I was
f'ing with you to test the aforementioned BS factor. So I threw out
the question, "WTF"?

I was going to get all masochistic and post some derivations of the
attenuation curve of simple filters and try to show where the
cutoff freqs are, but I don't think that'll help the OP at this
point.

One thing that might help, however is to explain this -3dB stuff.

-3dB bandwith - the bandwith of the filter from the lower to upper
frequency points where the response is 3dB below the level of the
passband response.

Furthermore one can define another bandwidth like say -40dB BW
which gives an indication of the steepness of the passband skirts.
 
A

Active8

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earth


Yes, but the difference is very often indeed quite negligible. We are
talking '-3 dB', not '-3.000000 dB'. Consider a single-tuned circuit at
500 kHz, with a -3 dB bandwidth of 10 kHz. Sqrt(495 x 505) = 499.97....
kHz.
Sure. Maybe it's just a technicality. I posted this triviality
twice though since in SED, I think we'd rather be accurate.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earth
link.net> wrote (in said:
Sure. Maybe it's just a technicality. I posted this triviality
twice though since in SED, I think we'd rather be accurate.
You'll get an 'irritating pedantry warning' from Genome if you are not
careful. (;-)

Take 10% bandwidth at 500 kHz; the geometric centre is still only 2.5
kHz lower than the arithmetic. There is a self-compensating effect: as
the fractional bandwidth increases, the difference between the means
also increases, but it matters less as well.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
-3dB bandwith - the bandwith of the filter from the lower to upper
frequency points where the response is 3dB below the level of the
passband response.

Furthermore one can define another bandwidth like say -40dB BW
which gives an indication of the steepness of the passband skirts.

Then divide the latter by the former to get the "shape factor"? I
think it's called that but I may be misremembering the correct term.
It has been known. :)
 
A

Active8

Jan 1, 1970
0
Then divide the latter by the former to get the "shape factor"? I
think it's called that but I may be misremembering the correct term.
It has been known. :)
Yeah. you can do that, too. Shape Factor.
 
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