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frequency division of sinusoidal waves

Discussion in 'Beginner Electronics' started by A. Walsh, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. A. Walsh

    A. Walsh Guest

    I am wondering if there exists an electronic component which is able
    to preform a frequency division of a sine wave (such as a divide by 2
    or 4, etc). I am aware of dual flip-flop ICs that are able to freq.
    divide square waves, but they are not particularly of interest to
    myself unless I absolutely have to use one.
    Thank you for your time.
  2. A. Walsh

    A. Walsh Guest

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. :)

    I am not sure as to the capabilities of your suggestion,perhaps
    you could provide me with some clarification as to the manner in which
    the fixed fractioning would be able to be accomplished. The need is
    for whatever the component to be able to take an input sine, and
    perform said division, as well as to track not only variations of
    frequency, such as if the input frequency shifts to any other given
    value (which will actually only be within a set range, as yet to be
    determined), but also that it be able to track as the amplitude of the
    signal decays (I will be able to live without amp. decay tracking,
    though it would mean slightly less versatility in use if this isn't
    reasonably possible.) An explanation of what I am attempting to do
    I have an interest in creating unique stimuli within the
    perception range of humans; currently I wish to design, construct, and
    implement the use of, circuitry which will be able to (when activated)
    take the 'mixed output' signal from a pair of electric Bass guitar
    pickups (the primary sine wave, as well as 3 to 6 of the harmonic sine
    waves) use semi-narrow band pass frequency separation, so as to be
    able to "treat" each sine individually, then pass each of the
    resulting signals through another part of the circuit to divide the
    respective frequencies (indeed you are correct in assuming that I wish
    to preserve the sine shape, as I am not particularly interested in
    mandatory wave clipping as a by-product of what I'm really after),
    lowering them by an octave or two, possibly both, followed by the
    mixing of the initial freq. as well as any of the treated freq. into a
    single output. All of this will take place within the body of the
    guitar at the flip of a switch, converting the signal path from an
    un-tapped/modified route to one leading through the afore mentioned
    circuit, with no other sort of control mechanism. The frequency band
    separation I will be able to hardwire and tune to the specifics of
    this particular instrument.
    There are devices already manufactured that provide similar
    functionality, however, they seemingly all have two major
    characteristics which I find to be drawbacks: First, and foremost,
    current devices make use of converting the input sine waves to square
    waves, I don't want to make my instrument sound like a rusty buzz-saw,
    thusly the desire to stick with sine wave shape; secondly seemingly
    all current such devices also fail to to provide any significant
    tracking of the waves (both in parallel across the multi-freq.
    spectrum, as well as individually over the decay of amplitude.)
    Dividing the signal into semi-narrow bands will hopefully allow for
    more versatile tracking across freq.

    If you could let me know regarding the fixed fractioning, I will
    be ever grateful. Thanks again for stepping up to respond to my post.
  3. Jimmy

    Jimmy Guest

    Would be a real trick to do this in real time.
  4. A. Walsh

    A. Walsh Guest

    Thought I'd make a follow up to this quest...
    your second post spurred me to research Fourier Transformations; and I
    must say, it seems that there might be something that I can do. I'd
    likely to quickly clarify: if I was interested in playing straight
    rock and roll music, and going for a circuit that was just good enough
    to accomplish what I'm after, I would probably take the route of
    people who have come before me ;). After reading about a company who
    designed a hearing aide to do pretty much exactly what I need (for
    people who do not have the greatest of capacity to hear the higher
    registers, the device reproduces the sound information at lower freq.
    rates; not for guitars), I spent the day pondering over a number of
    If I really wanted to have absolute precision in the freq.
    shifting, it's possible that I could rig something up using an old 486
    cpu at the core to analyze all of the functions needed, matching even
    the most slight of harmonics. This does not, in particular, appeal to
    me; I don't want to have to figure out the logistics of retro-fitting
    a computer into a 3.5x4.5x2 inch hole within the bass guitar, plus,
    this would mean that I would be pretty much locked into the digital
    domain... and we all know what can happen when digital circuits fail
    to function in the ways which we expect. Though, with an analogue
    circuit there are potentially more things able to go wrong due to the
    environmental circumstance. None-the-less, if ever I am out some
    place playing and suddenly the bass begins to malfunction (aside from
    being easier to explain to people why the sounds of an analog
    disruption happen, as opposed to say... the sound of a dieing modem
    from a bass guitar...) there may not be such a ready way to 'solve'
    the problem so to speak if a digital failure happens, such as the
    commonality of certain tools, where as one might be able to jerry-rig
    a fix out of things found in most small town hardware stores.
    So, what to do aside from out-right main-boarding the bass? The
    hearing aide people describe a modified DFT, which from the results of
    their testing seems to be able to track with the variations in a human
    voice (primary freq., residual harmonics, overtones, etc). So cool.
    Amplitude/voltage regulation aside, essentially pop open the back of
    the Bass, wire the hearing aide in series between the pickups and the
    output-jack, configured, of course, with a bypass switch, and good to
    go. But then I got to thinking: even if it were really that simple
    (which isn't likely), it still locks me into the digital domain.
    After having experienced the thrills of a multitude of musical
    instrumentation, learning to play piano, baritone tuba, guitar,
    pan-flute, violin, dulcimer, diggerido, the bass (upright, and
    electric), cello, as well as a variety of other stringed instruments
    plus having years of choral experience, though all of the above only
    to a moderate level... by no means am I attempting to imply anything
    about my ability to manipulate anything musical with any lack-luster
    skill; and then recently learning about the history of the advent of
    the piano... and all the trouble faced in designating a standard
    tunning (which by the way, I'm told, is that all keys that one might
    wish to play the piano in are equally out of tune from the natural
    harmonics.) I've decided that I wish to fore-go the whole advent of
    digital music, and spent the afternoon de-fretting the electric bass
    guitar that this whole modification will be used in conjunction with
    (I'm also a budding audiophile). As an added benefit of using
    analogue, interesting results have been known to suddenly show up with
    partial, and at times acceptable, 'failures' of electronic
    representations of functions.
    Having said that, and still wishing to come up with some sort of
    solution... and also remembering one of the basic principles of
    electronics: if it is possible to build a circuit of the digital
    nature, then it is also possible to construct a similar circuit of the
    analogue nature (though precision, over-all life continuity, and at
    times rate of speed for circuit completion, may be sacrificed)... I
    have now begun to look into continuous Fourier transform circuits.
    It may also come as a surprise for you that I'm just a 20 year
    old college student, and that I'm interested in more than the crude
    aspects of making noise. But what can I say, I like to have fun, and
    that's why I am very glad that you have taken up aide-ing me with this
    particular quest, thank you much.

    Oh yeah, perhaps you might be able to answer an almost totally
    unrelated question:
    Does such a device exist, which acts principley as a pot. though wired
    so as at the maximum setting in one direction the resistance in
    negligible, followed by an "off", or relatively high resistance at
    about the median of the range, with the max. setting on the other end
    also being with negligible resistance (though from another circuit
    path)? Essentially what I'm after is this: A volume knob which takes
    the direct feed from a set of guitar pickups, and functions over half
    of the overall range as a standard volume control, but ending (being
    "off") at the mid-point, and then switching to a mirrored volume
    function on the other half, but in place of straight signal, taking
    input from the circuit that I'm working on to do all the freq.
    modification. (kind of like a volume knob/effect pedal on/off switch
    rolled into one) If such a thing does not already exist (meaning
    purely mechanical, I'm fairly sure that there are ICs which can do
    something along these lines), does it seem reasonable to think that
    someone could, given the tools required to assemble it into a pot.
    style, actually build one? I really will only be running the whole
    machine at "full on" volume, but I don't want to blow any speakers
    along the way switching from straight feed to processed (I use
    outboard volume controls, such as on an amp, or preamp if recording,
    to adjust the play volume, or, if there is a need for sudden change, I
    modify the dynamics of my playing style, and don't use volume controls
    Anyways, thanks again.
  5. A. Walsh

    A. Walsh Guest

    Though I must say... going the TI chip route does sound oftly
    tell you what Don, if I take a shot that way, perhaps making similar
    things for other people, and come up with a sizable amount of spare
    change, I'll send a chunk your way. Of course, seeing as I'd keep the
    whole circuit filed under public domain, that spare change jar may not
    grow with any significant rate. None the less, I'll take a look into
    it {grin}
  6. A. Walsh

    A. Walsh Guest

    What sort of circuit would be able to do this with changing the
    amplitude, as I might be able to rig a sort of pre-amp device pre or
    post... sure not the best solution, but until I take some hard core
    time to research building conceptual electronics, it could allow proof
    of concept, as well as a chance to play around and see if such a
    process is desireable.
    Thanks for your time,
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