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free as in beer

W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Did you ever get the feeling you were out of step, don't
get something everyone else gets? Consider the statement,
"Free software is free as in freedom, not free as in beer."

What does the "free as in beer" part mean? Virtual beer?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Did you ever get the feeling you were out of step, don't
get something everyone else gets? Consider the statement,
"Free software is free as in freedom, not free as in beer."

What does the "free as in beer" part mean? Virtual beer?

'Free as in beer' means free of charge, as when someone buys you a
(real) beer. Engineering students in particular are typically highly
sensitized to this simile.

'Free as in freedom' means free of restrictions.

Some languages have different words for the two concepts- eg. French.
(gratuit/libre). Thus the old joke about protesters with placards that
read "Free women" and the punchline "do you deliver" would not work.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
C

CFoley1064

Jan 1, 1970
0
Subject: free as in beer
From: Winfield Hill [email protected]
Date: 2/26/2004 6:24 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email protected]>

Did you ever get the feeling you were out of step, don't
get something everyone else gets? Consider the statement,
"Free software is free as in freedom, not free as in beer."

What does the "free as in beer" part mean? Virtual beer?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Good morning, sir. "Free as in beer" is a reference to something like walking
by a college frat party, where someone at the party gives you a bottle of beer.
It's yours, you don't have to pay for it, or actually even say thanks. Just
drink it, it's yours. Open source is concerned that authors of intellectual
property are compensated -- an economic model that just allows everyone to take
software without compensation will not work.

Thanks for your contributions to the group.

Chris
 
I

Ian Bell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Did you ever get the feeling you were out of step, don't
get something everyone else gets? Consider the statement,
"Free software is free as in freedom, not free as in beer."

What does the "free as in beer" part mean? Virtual beer?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Free as in beer means without cost.

Free as in freedom means once you have it you can do what you like with it.

Ian
 
P

petrus bitbyter

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield Hill said:
Did you ever get the feeling you were out of step, don't
get something everyone else gets? Consider the statement,
"Free software is free as in freedom, not free as in beer."

What does the "free as in beer" part mean? Virtual beer?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

Win,

I can't but putting on my darkest glasses and say: "Free is an illusion
anyway" :) Nevertheless I like a beer.

petrus
 
B

Bob Stephens

Jan 1, 1970
0
'Free as in beer' means free of charge, as when someone buys you a
(real) beer. Engineering students in particular are typically highly
sensitized to this simile.

'Free as in freedom' means free of restrictions.

Some languages have different words for the two concepts- eg. French.
(gratuit/libre). Thus the old joke about protesters with placards that
read "Free women" and the punchline "do you deliver" would not work.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Whereas Microsoft software is free as in lunch.

Bob
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Winfield Hill wrote...



http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040226003735733

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

He is making an argument for the fundamental Constitutional precept of
perfectibility of society through unfettered transfusion of scientific
knowledge taking precedence over property rights and their fundamental
encouragement of innovation by providing economic incentive.
Perfectibility is gained by granting freedoms, and property rights are
intrinsically exclusionary and restrictions on freedom. He clearly
states that by free software he means unrestricted freedom of access,
freedom to improve, and freedom to share, and this is much deeper than
free as in free beer which entails a simple free access while
acknowledging it to be a product. Apparently he goes on to make a case
that economic incentive to innovate is not seriously discouraged by
curtailing traditional property rights to software, but I'm just not
interested in pursuing the nonsense. I don't agree with him- he is an
unrealistic idiot.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Stephens wrote...
Whereas Microsoft software is free as in lunch.

Whereas Microsoft software is free as in lunch, NOT.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs wrote...
I don't agree with him- he is an unrealistic idiot.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040226003735733

Eben Moglen is the lawyer who is the legal strength behind Gnu,
which is the foundation of Gnu/Linux, http://www.gnu.org/ that
the business world is finding so useful now. Certainly, the
free-software freedom codified in the Gnu license has not been
idiotic for Linux, where thousands of [mostly paid] programmers
have been busily improving the operating system. Consider that
in the last year linux has increased 60%, at least by one measure,
"Red Hat Linux 7.1 represents over a 60% increase in size, effort,
and traditional development costs over Red Hat Linux 6.2 (which
was released one year earlier)." http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/

Furthermore Linux continues to improve rapidly, becoming much
more attractive than Windows for large computers, simply on a
technical basis. Read the InfoWorld series, "Linux v2.6 kernel
looms large," http://www.infoworld.com/reports/05SRlinux26.html

On another front, large businesses such as IBM and Novell are
embracing the free-software model for their economic advantage.
The US DOD, and other government organizations having already
embraced linux and free-software long ago. Not so idiotic.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Stephens wrote...

Whereas Microsoft software is free as in lunch, NOT.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

TINSTAAFL is the proper terminology.

...Jim Thompson
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs wrote...
I don't agree with him- he is an unrealistic idiot.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040226003735733

Eben Moglen is the lawyer who is the legal strength behind Gnu,
which is the foundation of Gnu/Linux, http://www.gnu.org/ that
the business world is finding so useful now. Certainly, the
free-software freedom codified in the Gnu license has not been
idiotic for Linux, where thousands of [mostly paid] programmers
have been busily improving the operating system. Consider that
in the last year linux has increased 60%, at least by one measure,
"Red Hat Linux 7.1 represents over a 60% increase in size, effort,
and traditional development costs over Red Hat Linux 6.2 (which
was released one year earlier)." http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/

Furthermore Linux continues to improve rapidly, becoming much
more attractive than Windows for large computers, simply on a
technical basis. Read the InfoWorld series, "Linux v2.6 kernel
looms large," http://www.infoworld.com/reports/05SRlinux26.html

On another front, large businesses such as IBM and Novell are
embracing the free-software model for their economic advantage.
The US DOD, and other government organizations having already
embraced linux and free-software long ago. Not so idiotic.

Free hardware IP is every bit as interesting... and it's happening
anyway as people "share" various things.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Stephens wrote...

Whereas Microsoft software is free as in lunch, NOT.

Even if they gave it away for nothing it would still be far more
trouble than it's worth.
 
C

cpemma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Did you ever get the feeling you were out of step, don't
get something everyone else gets? Consider the statement,
"Free software is free as in freedom, not free as in beer."

What does the "free as in beer" part mean? Virtual beer?

The USA has F in freedom, but no F in beer. ;-)
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
cpemma wrote...
The USA has F in freedom, but no F in beer. ;-)

We have no F__'n beer?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
M

Mark Zenier

Jan 1, 1970
0
Free as in beer means without cost.

Free as in freedom means once you have it you can do what you like with it.

If you dig back into personal computer history, it's
free as in "you can't enslave it".

It was pretty common back in the early personal computer days for
some outfit to glom onto some public domain software, make some minor
variations, and then claim ownership of the whole thing. One flavor
of Forth and some of the P code Pascal systems come to mind.

Check out what the SCO Group is trying to do.

Mark Zenier [email protected] Washington State resident
 
C

Charles W. Johnson Jr.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
TINSTAAFL is the proper terminology.

...Jim Thompson

TANSTAAFL ,R.A.H had a grammer problem in that book the proponents being ex
convects and the like.

Charles.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
Not so idiotic.

Win, in Fred Bloggs' eyes, EVERYONE is an unrealistic idiot.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
cpemma wrote...

We have no F__'n beer?

Not like they have in Yorkshire. It takes five minutes pumping the
handle to fill a tankard and then you have to cut off the stream with
scissors. (;-)
 
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