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Flexibility of hours for EEs

M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
What's convenient about 7am ?


Since when was a suit and tie for example appropriate for any form of
engineering ?

Dress codes emote an air of professionalism I suppose. I don't
necessarily agree with it but then again I'm my own boss now. My garb when
I was in the IT business and worked for another was a pair of Dockers and
a polo shirt with the company logo embroidered.
 
V

Vladimir Vassilevsky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:




What's convenient about 7am ?

Those who think that they are very smart may try to start the company of
their own and establish the ideal environment within it. Liberté,
égalité, fraternité.
Since when was a suit and tie for example appropriate for any form of
engineering ?

It depends on your goals. As long as you dressed like a punk, you will
be paid not much higher then a punk. However being an engineering punk
is not too bad as a way of life.

Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

http://www.abvolt.com
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
It depends.

1. From the business standpoint, it is obviously more convenient for the
company to have you at work from 7 till 5 and wearing the appropriate dress.

Why are either a convenience to the company? What I want from
engineers are brilliant and first-time-correct designs, no matter how
or when they do it.

Thus you should consider the casual dress and flexible hours as a form of a
benefit. But nobody gives benefits for free. So, if they allow you something
like that, they are planning to make you work hard for it, and the other
benefits and rewards are likely to be smaller.

Ludicrous. Companies punish employees for not wearing ties? Employees
punish employers by leaving for new jobs at places that appreciate
them.

2. There are formal rules, and there are the informal rules also. What is
allowed to the senior engineer is not tolerable from the freshman right from
the college.

Ditto ludicrous. If anything, dress expectations are lower for junior
staff members, because they have less contact with customers, vendors,
and higher management.

3. The important thing for making the career is the old good ass licking.
That means you have to be at work earlier then the boss, and you can go home
only after the boss.

Not where I work. I'm usually last-in and last-out.

It doesn't matter if John Larkin is walking around the
office naked wearing only socks, your dress should be always neat and clean.

I wear jeans and a t-shirt most of the time, with minor adjustments
for ambient temperature. The trappings are illusions of
professionalism for people who can't get the electronics right.


John
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
For software dev I take it? Can't do that with hardware, it was brought up
some time back, and while the cost of freight back and forth is doable.
However, the cost of duplicating test equipment was prohibitive.


I did that for a bit, but were kept being reminded of the OH&S issues.

Stepping on a pins-up DIP16, or getting a solder splash stuck to the
top of one's foot, is educational.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Stepping on a pins-up DIP16, or getting a solder splash stuck to the
top of one's foot, is educational.

John

I've done both ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
V

Vladimir Vassilevsky

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote:

Why are either a convenience to the company?

When many people have to work together, they do have to adhere to the
common rules for everybody. The adherence is more important then the
individuality.
What I want from
engineers are brilliant and first-time-correct designs, no matter how
or when they do it.

There is a niche of a tiny one man designs which are enough simple to be
correct from the first time. Big projects are done by big hives and the
rules of a hive apply.
Ludicrous. Companies punish employees for not wearing ties?

Yes. Indeed big companies punish employess for not wearing personal tags
and the shirts of the proper color, and the other crap like that.
Employees
punish employers by leaving for new jobs at places that appreciate
them.

But they will have to work their asses there, and the benefits are going
to be miserable compared to what the big companies do. So it is a
question of the personal preference.
Ditto ludicrous. If anything, dress expectations are lower for junior
staff members, because they have less contact with customers, vendors,
and higher management.





Not where I work. I'm usually last-in and last-out.


The point I am trying to make the work rules can be very different and
there are the tradeoffs on the either side.
I wear jeans and a t-shirt most of the time, with minor adjustments
for ambient temperature. The trappings are illusions of
professionalism for people who can't get the electronics right.

Do you know many people who can really get the electronics right?

Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

http://www.abvolt.com
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've done both ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Me too! And I just learned to not try to mold hot-melt glue with my
finger.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Me too! And I just learned to not try to mold hot-melt glue with my
finger.

John

Those shaped wood sticks that women use to shove their cuticle back
work great ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
Q

qrk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi there - I just recently graduated from college with a BSEE and have
been working at a new job since then. My employers is incredibly
flexible about my hours - as long as I put in an average of 8 hours
per day and am there by 10 or 11 they're happy. Also, there is no
dress code and most people just wear shorts and t-shirts.


My question is this: Is this a typical working environment for EEs?
When I interviewed with other companies, they all seemed much more
formal, so maybe I'm just lucky? Or maybe companies just try to be
really serious during the interview process?


Thanks,

-Michael

Depends on the company. I've been around "big" firms where the
engineers all wore button-up shirts, slacks, and non-athletic shoes
and had to worry about union rules (e.g., need to use a union employee
to move your soldering iron from bench to bench). The smaller firms
I've been around are usually more casual. Bare feet are a norm for the
engineering types where I work. I tell folks it reduces static
problems. When you're at work for 12 to 14 hours, you better be
comfortable. Plus, you don't want to get your dressy duds dirty when
working around dirty environments.

The smaller firms tend to have flex hours. My last company, this
worked out as a major advantage since the field people had nearly 24
hour access to the engineers. The engineers came in anywhere from 7am
to 6pm. I always kept some nicer clothes in my file cabinet in case I
had to meet a customer.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Depends on the company. I've been around "big" firms where the
engineers all wore button-up shirts, slacks, and non-athletic shoes
and had to worry about union rules (e.g., need to use a union employee
to move your soldering iron from bench to bench). The smaller firms
I've been around are usually more casual. Bare feet are a norm for the
engineering types where I work. I tell folks it reduces static
problems. When you're at work for 12 to 14 hours, you better be
comfortable. Plus, you don't want to get your dressy duds dirty when
working around dirty environments.

The smaller firms tend to have flex hours. My last company, this
worked out as a major advantage since the field people had nearly 24
hour access to the engineers. The engineers came in anywhere from 7am
to 6pm. I always kept some nicer clothes in my file cabinet in case I
had to meet a customer.

How about shoes ?:)

What ever came of Reson?

...Jim Thompson
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote:



When many people have to work together, they do have to adhere to the
common rules for everybody. The adherence is more important then the
individuality.

Those rules do *not* have to include dress codes, start-stop times,
or when to take bathroom breaks. The only important dynamic is work
output. If everyone plays nice and the work gets done, all is well.
Screw the ties.
There is a niche of a tiny one man designs which are enough simple to be
correct from the first time. Big projects are done by big hives and the
rules of a hive apply.

Again, those rules do not have to be suffocating. They can be rather
lax, in fact. As I've said, I worked on a CPU design with a couple
of hundred engineers, at times in five sites spread around the world.
There was no dress code, no official start/stop times, and an overall
lax atmosphere. Management got uptight at times, but that's what
they're paid for. ;-)
Yes. Indeed big companies punish employess for not wearing personal tags
and the shirts of the proper color, and the other crap like that.

They did in the 60s, anyway. Who would work in such a hell-hole
today? Most learned a long time ago that function was more important
than form, likely about the time engineers found that they had some
real value. ;-)
But they will have to work their asses there, and the benefits are going
to be miserable compared to what the big companies do. So it is a
question of the personal preference.

Complete nonsense. Ever hear of "competition"? It works at the
employment end of the business too.
The point I am trying to make the work rules can be very different and
there are the tradeoffs on the either side.

What possible reason would I want to work for an asshole who
considers the color of my shirt more important than the work I do? I
see no tradeoff at all.
Do you know many people who can really get the electronics right?

Yes. Perhaps you don't see them because you're more interested in
fashion than electronics? One of the interesting things in life is
that you tend to get what you measure. Measure wisely.
 
J

John Tserkezis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Since when was a suit and tie for example appropriate for any form of
engineering ?

It can prove quite useful. Maybe not to the company, but certainly to me:

When upper management (the CEO) ordered suits for everyone (and they meant
EVERYONE) in the company. Including the bench techs. Then it's appropriate.
He wanted even the techs to look good in the once every six months we had
people walking through the workshop.

In the first three days, we lost two ties to soldering irons. More due to
things that generally happen when you dangle nylon in front of printers and
other hot bits in the workshop.
Since we weren't going to replace ties our of our own pocket (and none of us
agreed with the move anyway) we just wore the cut, melted and otherwise
damaged ties anyway.

No matter, this 500+ employee, several decade old, multi million dollar
company that had been doing well under previous management, folded about a
year later.
It wasn't ties alone of course, but the other multitude of bad moves this
idiot made. The suits were just the first sign.

This was a good learning environment for me, engineering issues aside, it
was office politics (that I hate) that turned out to be more valuable to learn
for me.
I've been through a few folded companies over my career, and learned to jump
from a sinking ship a bit earlier than everyone else who was left wondering
what had gone wrong.

And I owe it all to a burnt tie.

Never wore a tie on the bench since though. And never intend to either. :)
 
J

John Tserkezis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Those shaped wood sticks that women use to shove their cuticle back
work great ;-)

Settle down, we're real men. We don't need such instruments of convenience.

Such as, in the absence of needle-nose pliers within reach, you hold onto
the pigtail with your bare fingers while removing it from the board with a
soldering iron on the other side.
It doesn't burn if you do it quick enough. And if the pliers aren't within
reach, it's quick enough.
 
J

John Tserkezis

Jan 1, 1970
0
David said:
Hardware is easy too if you can just carry it and any required test
gear home with you. Although I've worked on stuff where the hardware
product is 150m long, so that's kinda hard to fit in my workshop at
home =:->

Taking away a cro, signal generator, assorted spares (several shelves full),
assorted cables made up for the different types of equipment, and all the
other bits a pieces required on the back of a motorcycle, isn't practical.
Not for me anyway.

And it leaves the workshop at work bare, so they can't do a lot of the work.
Or take a risk and work there...
I know companies that just blatantly lie in interviews too, they
happily tell you want you want to hear. So it's often better not to
lead them on with direct questions like "Do you have flexible hours?"
etc.

Been there, done that. It's a learning curve. My bullshit detector is more
finely honed now than before, but I've picked up on some weird things on
several interviews.
I knew I was right from some time down the track (just by fluke), I hear
about people who worked there and told their stories. It just sounds suspect
at the interview stage, but ends up outright unfavourable if work behind the
scenes.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Settle down, we're real men. We don't need such instruments of convenience.

Such as, in the absence of needle-nose pliers within reach, you hold onto
the pigtail with your bare fingers while removing it from the board with a
soldering iron on the other side.
It doesn't burn if you do it quick enough. And if the pliers aren't within
reach, it's quick enough.

I think the best "tool" I've ever acquired (after flip-down
magnifiers) is a hemostat... the extra finger helper ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Settle down, we're real men. We don't need such instruments of convenience.

Such as, in the absence of needle-nose pliers within reach, you hold onto
the pigtail with your bare fingers while removing it from the board with a
soldering iron on the other side.

Exactly. Pain is a sensation; it's only in your head. And burnt
fingers fix themselves.

John
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
It can prove quite useful. Maybe not to the company, but certainly to me:

When upper management (the CEO) ordered suits for everyone (and they meant
EVERYONE) in the company. Including the bench techs. Then it's appropriate.
He wanted even the techs to look good in the once every six months we had
people walking through the workshop.

In the first three days, we lost two ties to soldering irons. More due to
things that generally happen when you dangle nylon in front of printers and
other hot bits in the workshop.
Since we weren't going to replace ties our of our own pocket (and none of us
agreed with the move anyway) we just wore the cut, melted and otherwise
damaged ties anyway.

No matter, this 500+ employee, several decade old, multi million dollar
company that had been doing well under previous management, folded about a
year later.
It wasn't ties alone of course, but the other multitude of bad moves this
idiot made. The suits were just the first sign.

This was a good learning environment for me, engineering issues aside, it
was office politics (that I hate) that turned out to be more valuable to learn
for me.
I've been through a few folded companies over my career, and learned to jump
from a sinking ship a bit earlier than everyone else who was left wondering
what had gone wrong.

And I owe it all to a burnt tie.

Never wore a tie on the bench since though. And never intend to either. :)


I would have made two phone calls if i was told to wear a tie at that
bench. The first call would be to OSHA, and the second to the TV news
to tell them both about the stupid, and dangerous work environment that
the new management had created, simply to make themselves look better.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Vladimir said:
It depends.

1. From the business standpoint, it is obviously more convenient for the
company to have you at work from 7 till 5 and wearing the appropriate dress.


I would NEVER take a job where I was required to wear a dress!!!


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Exactly. Pain is a sensation; it's only in your head. And burnt
fingers fix themselves.


Not if you're Diabetic. Nothing wants to heal.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
qrk said:
I always kept some nicer clothes in my file cabinet in case I
had to meet a customer.


What did you file them under?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
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