Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Fender deLuxe Hot Rod ,2002

R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mr. Land said:
We were forbidden to (try to) play that where I worked...


Have you ever wondered what Jimmy Paige plays when he`s trying out a
guitar in a music shop?

I have visions of some 12 y/o kid snatching the guitar off him saying...
"No No it goes like THIS!"


Ron(UK)
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron(UK) said:
In that case very little will happen, the switched socket shorts out the
output. However if the socket or speaker cable were open circuit then
there`s a good chance that the output tranny, valves or valve bases
would flash over.

How much does the matching transformer heat up with a direct short ?

What happens to the output valves, droppers etc I can't believe they are
self limiting ?

Years ago someone asked me to repair a Selmer valve amp that he'd shorted
the speaker lead on and the primary side, high impdeance side, of the o/p
transformer went o/c , but I never asked how long it was "running" like
that.
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
As you say Ron, part of a valve amp's sound is the fact that it can be
made to go smoothly dirty, and often even has a channel designed to do
just that by deliberately overloading the second or third stage with pre
and post gain controls. I always think of the old Canned Heat number
'Let's Work Together' as a premium example of how a guitar sound can be
horrendously distorted, whilst still being sufficiently musical to find
its place in the song. I've no idea as to whether that guitar was
pre-processed with a fuzz pedal, but I have heard stage musicians get a
similar sound from just making use of the overdrive facilities on their
amp. 100mV does sound like a lot of input compared to a guitar pickup,
though. About the maximum that I normally drive these things with, is
20mV.

Arfa

I look for a little crossover distortion when a client wants an early
breakup. Have a look at this blokes site;

http://www.eurotubes.com/index.htm


And view the "How To" biasing demos. This is exactly how I have been doing
it for years.
 
G

Gareth Magennis

Jan 1, 1970
0
N Cook said:
How much does the matching transformer heat up with a direct short ?

What happens to the output valves, droppers etc I can't believe they are
self limiting ?

Years ago someone asked me to repair a Selmer valve amp that he'd shorted
the speaker lead on and the primary side, high impdeance side, of the o/p
transformer went o/c , but I never asked how long it was "running" like
that.



If I were you I would take some time and do some research about how valve
amplifiers work, you clearly have little idea. A short circuit is way safer
than an open circuit. An open circuit feeds up to twice the HT voltage back
into the output valves and can destroy them and lots of other stuff in an
instant. A short circuit will take much longer to do any real damage,
generally longer than a guitarist will spend playing his guitar with no
sound coming out of his speakers.

Get yourself a book on valve amplifiers and read it, you will be amazed
about how different the discipline is to solid state. It's never too late to
learn.


Gareth.
 
G

Gareth Magennis

Jan 1, 1970
0
msg said:
Gareth Magennis wrote:



For us 'across the pond', what does 'HT' stand for?

Michael


High Tension - the High voltage supply rail, usually 300 to 500 plus volts.
Shove double that back into an output circuit and it is likely to go bang.


Gareth.
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gareth Magennis said:
If I were you I would take some time and do some research about how valve
amplifiers work, you clearly have little idea. A short circuit is way safer
than an open circuit. An open circuit feeds up to twice the HT voltage back
into the output valves and can destroy them and lots of other stuff in an
instant. A short circuit will take much longer to do any real damage,
generally longer than a guitarist will spend playing his guitar with no
sound coming out of his speakers.

Get yourself a book on valve amplifiers and read it, you will be amazed
about how different the discipline is to solid state. It's never too late to
learn.


Gareth.

Left to me I would have been perfectly happy leaving valve stuff back in the
fifties and earlier.
But these musicians and HiFi nuts will keep buying the stuff and then expect
people to repair mid 20th century technology that is unbelievably still
being made in the 21st C.
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
N Cook said:
Value of 1W, R67 near the footswitch socket, measures about 1200 ohm but
overheated colour bands look like 11 ohm ?

The polished stainless steel control panel has the legends only silk screen
printed on. No more durable than the white markings on valves/tubes. On/Off
and standby legends already worn off.
What is the recognised way of ameliorating this, remove pots etc, clean off
panel with very weak solvent and spray varnish over ?


I tried lacquering a test spot but it did not like the metal, would wear
away as quickly as the Lettraset type silkscreen printing. I did add a few
white Lettraset legends totally worn off
A sheet of celluloid over the lettering and under the bush nuts and taped
,hidden, along the sides looks quite presentable.
 
M

msg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gareth Magennis wrote:

An open circuit feeds up to twice the HT voltage back
into the output valves...

For us 'across the pond', what does 'HT' stand for?

Michael
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Left to me I would have been perfectly happy leaving valve stuff back in
the
fifties and earlier.
But these musicians and HiFi nuts will keep buying the stuff and then
expect
people to repair mid 20th century technology that is unbelievably still
being made in the 21st C.



I'm very glad some of it's still being made, otherwise it would be much
harder to find tubes for vintage equipment. I'd never worked on a piece of
tube equipment before until a couple years ago when I got an old radio but I
was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to deal with, I don't see how it's
unreasonable to expect people to repair it, I was able to adapt so any real
tech ought to be able to as well. I'm under no illusion of tubes sounding
"better" but I do think they're cool, like much other old technology.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
msg said:
Gareth Magennis wrote:



For us 'across the pond', what does 'HT' stand for?

Michael


B+


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A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
N Cook said:
Left to me I would have been perfectly happy leaving valve stuff back in
the
fifties and earlier.
But these musicians and HiFi nuts will keep buying the stuff and then
expect
people to repair mid 20th century technology that is unbelievably still
being made in the 21st C.

I don't think you realise quite what you're saying there. We had a debate
about this on here some time back, and it was questioned as to how relevant
valve technology was, when these amplifiers were just old relics of a bygone
age, and basically not much sold / made any more. A number of people were
surprised at the statistics supplied by the store that I carry out this
service work for. The owner said that approximately 70% of his new gear
stock, was valve, and that every 'serious' guitar player aspired to owning a
valve amp. As far as James' contention that there is not a "better" sound
from a valve amp, I think that very much depends on what you're putting
through it. There is little if anything better sounding than a Fender Strat
played through an (original) Twin Reverb. The smooth response, gentle
clipping, and inherent 2nd harmonic distortion, all contribute to a sound
that is particularly suited to a guitar.

I think that this needs to be understood, along with a fairly deep
understanding of general valve theory, in order to be successful at carrying
out this sort of repair. If Mr Cook really dislikes the gear to the extent
that he appears to, then I would venture to suggest that this is not a very
good platform to be working from, and perhaps he should stick to the
semiconductor amps, that he seems happier with.

As far as Gareth saying that valve guitar amps are "designed to distort a
lot", I'm not sure that I quite agree with that. I would suggest that they
are designed to be fundamentally clean, but with the *ability* to distort a
lot, in the right way, in the right hands. In many instances, a musician
will require a clean sound from his guitar or other instrument, or even
vocals, and it would be a poor design indeed, that couldn't give him that
....

Also, it is perfectly possible to carry out repairs to this equipment,
without being able to play a guitar. I've been doing it for the better part
of 40 years. All that is needed is a good understanding of how the equipment
*should* perform under test conditions, and this is largely down to
experience. If a 'muso' feels that there is something wrong sound-wise with
his amplifier, it's usually possible to strip the nuts and bolts meaning out
of his muso-speak, and find a technical reason for the problem. Your 'scope
and experience will soon tell you when you've resolved that problem.

Arfa
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
B+


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What is the US term for EHT (Extra High Tension) , say more than 1KV ?

B++ ?
 
N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't think you realise quite what you're saying there. We had a debate
about this on here some time back, and it was questioned as to how relevant
valve technology was, when these amplifiers were just old relics of a bygone
age, and basically not much sold / made any more. A number of people were
surprised at the statistics supplied by the store that I carry out this
service work for. The owner said that approximately 70% of his new gear
stock, was valve, and that every 'serious' guitar player aspired to owning a
valve amp. As far as James' contention that there is not a "better" sound
from a valve amp, I think that very much depends on what you're putting
through it. There is little if anything better sounding than a Fender Strat
played through an (original) Twin Reverb. The smooth response, gentle
clipping, and inherent 2nd harmonic distortion, all contribute to a sound
that is particularly suited to a guitar.

Sentences like
"There is little if anything better sounding than a Fender Strat
played through an (original) Twin Reverb"
are absolutely useles on an electronics repair forum.

Now if you could point to a site that has electrograms and spectrum alalysis
plots, and sound files, of differnet guitars/pickuups/amps/cabs being played
in different modes along with , (consensus if possible) muso "technical"
language in their terms, their audio description, then it would indeed be a
very useful addition.
With an extra file giving sound files of common fault conditions simulated,
ie fault induced clipping rather than musical effect, pops , hiss, crackle,
hum, buzz, half complementary pair signal, etc that techies could point
owners to, for such noises appearing intermittently and rarely on the work
bench.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
N said:
What is the US term for EHT (Extra High Tension) , say more than 1KV ?

B++ ?


B+ is the plate supply, no matter how high the voltage. It is from
the early days of radio:

The 'A battery' powered the filaments.

The 'B battery' powered the plates.

The 'C battery' provided the grid bias.


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N

N Cook

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
B+ is the plate supply, no matter how high the voltage. It is from
the early days of radio:

The 'A battery' powered the filaments.

The 'B battery' powered the plates.

The 'C battery' provided the grid bias.


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What do you call the seriously high PDA (post deflection acceleration
voltage) in an oscilloscope or TV, surely something other than B+ ?
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
N said:
Left to me I would have been perfectly happy leaving valve stuff back in the
fifties and earlier.
But these musicians and HiFi nuts will keep buying the stuff and then expect
people to repair mid 20th century technology that is unbelievably still
being made in the 21st C.


I don't understand, in general valve gear is far far easier to repair
than modern surface mount solid state stuff, Once you get a grip on the
basic theory, it`s all so logical.

Ron(UK)
 
R

Ron(UK)

Jan 1, 1970
0
N said:
Now if you could point to a site that has electrograms and spectrum alalysis
plots, and sound files, of differnet guitars/pickuups/amps/cabs being played
in different modes along with , (consensus if possible) muso "technical"
language in their terms, their audio description, then it would indeed be a
very useful addition.
With an extra file giving sound files of common fault conditions simulated,
ie fault induced clipping rather than musical effect, pops , hiss, crackle,
hum, buzz, half complementary pair signal, etc that techies could point
owners to, for such noises appearing intermittently and rarely on the work
bench.

It doesn`t really work like that with valve music gear. anyway, most
of the stock faults on the more common amps are well known among the
guys (and gals) who repair the stuff for a living, and well documented
on the web.


Ron(UK)
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
N Cook said:
Sentences like
"There is little if anything better sounding than a Fender Strat
played through an (original) Twin Reverb"
are absolutely useles on an electronics repair forum.

Well, not if you work on this stuff a lot, and have at least a basic
understanding of the 'musicality' of particular guitar / amplifier
combinations. If you hear a cheapo 'starter' guitar, played through a fully
solid state amplifier more suited to vocals, or a keyboard, then listen to
say a Fender / Fender combination, you'd know what I mean. I suspect that
most on here who do this work seriously, know exactly what I'm saying.
Now if you could point to a site that has electrograms and spectrum
alalysis
plots, and sound files, of differnet guitars/pickuups/amps/cabs being
played
in different modes along with , (consensus if possible) muso "technical"
language in their terms, their audio description, then it would indeed be
a
very useful addition.
With an extra file giving sound files of common fault conditions
simulated,
ie fault induced clipping rather than musical effect, pops , hiss,
crackle,
hum, buzz, half complementary pair signal, etc that techies could point
owners to, for such noises appearing intermittently and rarely on the work
bench.

Despite what some on here would sometimes have you believe, occasionally, it
*is* just subjective. I would actually think that it would be pretty
difficult to analyse the difference to the point of being able to
demonstrate it, technically. By suggesting that this was 'not your thing', I
intended no offence to your abilities. I know many engineers that are very
good in many fields, but not in the repair of valve amps. I am sure that
there are others out there who, unlike me, are properly musical, that have a
far better ear for problems than I do.

As an example, a few months back, I had a valve band amp in that just
'didn't sound right'. The owner said that it was quiet, and sounded 'thin'.
It wasn't actually all that quiet, but maybe a little compared to what he
was used to. 'Thin' was a good description of the sound. You couldn't really
say that it lacked in bass, or any other register really. It just sounded,
well thin ! With a sine wave and a 'scope and a power load and meter, there
was barely anything amiss with the output waveform or power level. The one
thing that did show on the 'scope, was a slight asymmetry to the wave, but
it was slight, and could have easily been missed. The problem turned out to
be the screen feed resistor on one of the output valves (just a 2 rather
than a 4 valve lineup). It was completely open, so there was no screen
voltage on that valve at all, which would have meant that it was barely
working, so you might have expected to have seen a much more distorted
waveform at the output, as you would have with a semiconductor amp.

When the resistor was replaced, and that valve's contribution to the output
stage was restored, there was little difference in either the overall sine
output power, or the waveshape, but the sound was now much better than
before. It now sounded 'right'. Now I know that doesn't explain the
mechanism of why or just how it sounded 'thin' before, and 'round' after,
but as an engineer doing a lot of this stuff, I knew that it was now
repaired, and the owner agreed. He made a point of calling the shop, and
telling them how 'good' (there we go again ...!) it sounded compared to how
it had for some time. So I make no excuse for using phrases on here like
that I used with the Fender ...

Arfa
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
N said:
What do you call the seriously high PDA (post deflection acceleration
voltage) in an oscilloscope or TV, surely something other than B+ ?


B+ is a class of supply, B is high voltage, and + indicates it is
negative ground, so all readings will be positive. Individual supplies
may be labeled: 'Second anode', 'High voltage', 'Focus'. It depends on
the item. You see transmitters with thousands of volts, at high
current. Before the metering it is still B+, and after may be called
the plate supply, or plate voltage.

You need to download the scan of Radiotron Designers Handbook (4th
edition)

http://www.pmillett.com/Books/intro_RDH4.pdf is one source. This is a
25 MB download, but has more about Vacuum tubes than any other book you
will likely find in a single book than any other.

http://www.pmillett.com/ has other books on tubes, as well.


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