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Fancy 12V car battery level indicator

Discussion in 'Power Electronics' started by garynobles, Jul 4, 2013.

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  1. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    Hi, I have been trying to design a circuit to monitor my 12V leisure car battery, I'm thinking this should be fairly simple, but its been years since I did any real electronics.

    So the basic idea: Use the circular bargraph to indicate the level of the battery when a momentary push button is pressed
    the circular LED bar graph: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11492

    So the range of the battery would be something like 10.5V to 13.5V, there are 32 LEDs in pairs, so essentially 16.

    1. So if we take the first LED pair, this should illuminate when less than 10.5V, so that should be easy, as long as there is some life in the battery it should illuminate

    2. The next LED should only illuminate at the next step, 16 LEDs, 3V range 16/3= steps of 0.2V So at the following steps:
    10.5, 10.7, 10.9, 11.1, 11.3, 11.5, 11.7, 11.9, 12.1, 12.3, 12.5, 12.7, 12.9, 13.1, 13.3, 13.5.
    So for 10.7V I guess I should use resistor before each LED.

    3. The LEDs should light up after a momentary push switch is triggered, I would like this to be graceful, so the ring lights up smoothly one LED at a time as the voltage increases, I guess capacitors between the resistors and LEDs?

    This is the simplest way I can think of doing it, I have seen circuits which use a LM339 chip, but that can only monitor 4 voltages, perhaps 4 of these in series could do the job? http://www.electroschematics.com/7068/lm339-lm239-lm2901-datasheet/ I think this is the way to go rather than using inline resistor/ capacitor pairs?

    So I am a clear novice when it comes to electronics (but I'm enthusiastic), so if anyone can help me with this I would be more than happy to put together a how to so others can copy/develop it, something similar has been done before: http://www.instructables.com/id/Car-battery-tester/
    In that example only one bar is lit, I want the other bars to stay lit.
    I can use Eagle to make the PCB diagram and get it printed, but I need to figure out what components I need and how to do it!

    Thanks for any help.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  2. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    Sep 5, 2009
    hi Gary
    welcome to the Electronics Point forums :)

    Im thinking it may be a bit difficult to do such fine resolution as that and still be accurate
    is that sort of stepping really needed ?

    thats just the difference between using the chip in DOT or BAR mode :)

    Dave
     
  3. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    Hi Thanks for your reply,

    Well, this is a battery status indicator, so jumps of 0.2v or thereabouts as I have 16 LED positions, otherwise some LEDs would never be used.

    With more searching I have discovered the LM3914. This can cope with 10 LEDs, so I am 6 short, perhaps 2 LM3914 chips?

    A few resistors and potentiometers are needed, I have found a similar post here: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/...gn-ideas-reviews/108340-lm3914-voltmeter.html

    Thanks again

     
  4. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Have a look at the LM3914. It does 10 LEDs, but you can cascade them. As long as your gaps are regular, you can do it with this chip.

    Expanded scale voltmeters made with these were one of the frequent applications (in fact I think the datasheet contains the circuit for one)
     
  5. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    circuit1.jpg

    Attached is a partial circuit, I got stuck.

    So I've gone with the LM3914 IC set to Bar mode (pin 9)
    On the wiring diagram I saw the LEDs were connected cathode to anode from the IC, with this ring LED setup they share 4 common cathodes, so how do I get around this?

    I am returning to electronics after 15 years and a very bad teacher, so I'm learning as I go, any obvious problems?
    The capacitors are going to be used to create a fade out effect, I guess this is where they should go?
    You will notice I have only concentrated on the right side LEDS, I will use a second IC for them once I have this side working.

    Thanks for any input

    Gary
     
  6. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    not sure what you mean by "sharing 4 common cathodes" ?

    you actually have the LED's reversed and the anodes should be commoned and going to +V

    from memory the outputs of the 3914 are current sinks rather than current sources
    that is ... current is supplied via the +V rail through the LED and through the collector emitter junction to ground within the chip for that output pin

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  7. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Bar mode is OK, but the current requirements can get large when you have the entire bar on. You can also run into package dissipation limits too..

    Pretty much, you don't. If you can't wire the LEDs the way you need to, then something is going to have to change.

    In your case, the diodes have a common cathode. A common anode would be great, so you're faced with the complete opposite.

    You could use a transistor on each output to invert the signal and use it to drive the LEDs, but then the circuit starts to get needlessly complex.

    Can you use some other LEDs?

    Another approach is to use a micro-controller to sample the input voltage and to control the LEDs directly. This has some complexities (5V supply required, protection for the ADC input, level shifting, programming) that meant I did not recommend it previously, but you can make it work with your LEDs.

    I guess the main one is that you need to determine if your design is feasible before you go into great detail with it.

    It is good that you stopped as soon as you encountered the LED issue.

    You'll have to describe the fade out effect you're after, but I'm pretty certain that capacitors there will not be the solution.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  8. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    Steve,
    that diode ring as shown in his first link is common anode so not a problem

    its just that he as drawn them incorrectly in his diagram

    Dave
     
  9. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    True, the schematic you've drawn Gary has the LEDs around the wrong way.

    The LEDs in the device you've linked to are common anode, which is just what you want (and not what you've drawn).
     
  10. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    The LED diagram should be right as it is from the retailer, they provide the eagle libraries.
    https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11492

    so for now if we ignore the fade effect, can this LED setup be controlled per LED? Or do I have to have a major rethink?

    thanks
     
  11. Rleo6965

    Rleo6965

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    Jan 22, 2012
    I've already build Bar Graph Car Battery indicator. But it uses only 10 LEDs.:)
     

    Attached Files:

  12. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    Thanks Rleo, that is along the lines of what I want, although I have 16 LEDs so I will have to configure 2 LM3914s accordingly, but for now If I can get half of them designed the other half should be fairly straight forward.
     
  13. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    believe Steve and I when we tell you ... the LED's are shown with the incorrect polarity in the circuit

    look at them and compare them to the LED's in the LM3914 datasheet
    I personally manufacture a commercial product using this series of chips,
    if I wired the LED's the way shown in that circuit, my product wouldnt work


    EDIT: OK looking again at the that page... there's no circuit there but it appears that I have misread the info
    they are common Cathode not common Anode. My comments still are valid :)
    What it means is you cannot directly drive the LEDS as shown in your diagram cuz the polarity is incorrect, The 3914 works directly with common Anode, it means you need additional switching transistors between the 3914 outputs and the LEDs.
    This is what Steve was suggesting earlier

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  14. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    note the polarity if the LEDs compared to the cct you supplied :)

    that top common rail VLED is positive NOT ground

    [​IMG]


    cheers
    Dave
     

    Attached Files:

  15. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    Thanks Dave, that makes sense now, I will start playing with transistors!
    I guess no other version of the 3914 which works the other way?
     
  16. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    So, the transistor route...
    As the 3914 is a sink I need a PNP Transistor, right?
    So if I only use 1 LED for example (see attached) this should work?

    Thanks again for all your work, I wish the internet was around when I was being taught (badly) this at school!


    circuit2.jpg
     
  17. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    circuit3.jpg

    So if the previous is correct my transistors will look a little like this?
    (Note pins 11 and 10 are not needed)
     
  18. garynobles

    garynobles

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    Jul 4, 2013
    circuit4.jpg
    Ok, so before anyone points out some clear errors, here is a corrected version with the +V coming into the PNPs and out to the common cathode. I have include the 2nd IC, I'm pretty sure I will need some more resistors between R2 and the power source otherwise the current will go straight to ground! So I will need to do some calculations.

    But for now, how is it looking?
     
  19. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    At the very least (i.e. this may not be sufficient) you need to place a resistor in series with each LED to limit the current.

    Normally you need a resistor in series with the base of the transistor. While this would be a good idea, since the LM3914 is a current sink, another (easier) way is to program the output current to a suitable value. 0.2mA might be appropriate.
     
  20. davenn

    davenn Moderator

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    and for the second 3914 you will need to tie the 2 chips together so that the range runs smoothly from one set of LEDs to the next
    Look in the datasheet, it gives an example of cascading 3914's

    Dave
     
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