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EVER411 15V battery from WES

Discussion in 'Hobby Electronics' started by Ross Herbert, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. Ross Herbert

    Ross Herbert Guest

    I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going over
    inside and out. It's a nice looking analogue MM which is built like a brick
    outhouse and it has been well looked after since it was obtained from the PMG's
    Stores branch in 1971 at a charge out cost of $68.50. They certainly weren't
    expensive at that price - considering they had a 10A ac range using a current
    transformer and were made in Australia by Master Instruments. The leather case
    was like new into the bargain.

    As some of you may be aware, this meter - like the AVO 8 etc, uses a 15V battery
    which is no longer manufactured by the usual battery manufacturers. I found that
    WES Components sell a lookalike which is supposedly an alkaline equivalent of
    the old carbon-zinc pile made by Eveready as the 411 battery. These are labelled
    as Made in Singapore and are fitted in a red plastic case the same dimensions as
    the original Eveready - but they are about half the weight of the original. I
    think they are distributed in Aust by Master Instruments. They cost about $27 ea
    in Perth so they are not cheap to say the least. I ordered 2 and received them
    today.

    Upon connecting my digital meter to the first battery (with no load) it measured
    15V initially and rapidly dropped to a steady 13.5V within 10 seconds. Exactly
    the same result with the second battery. I didn't even bother to connect a 15K
    load and do a nominal 1mA measurement because the result could not be any better
    than with no load. I had already determined that the APO M/M No.3 requires the
    battery to measure a minimum of 13V in order to be able to zero the meter on the
    Ohms x1000 range with leads shorted, so these EVER411's were no good at all.

    I took both batteries back to the supplier in Perth (Westec Electronics - the
    rep for WES Components)and demonstrated the problem to the counter jockey using
    two different meters. He agreed the voltage measurements did not match the
    advertised specs and refunded my money.

    The point of this story is to advise anyone who may be considering buying this
    battery from WES (or any other supplier), think twice, and then don't do it.

    Since I still needed a replacement battery I called in at Malz and bought a
    miniature MN27 12V battery and a 2032 3V Lithium cell for a total of $5.20 and I
    am currently shoe-horning them into the casing from the original dead Eveready
    411.
     
  2. Ross Herbert

    Ross Herbert Guest

    On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 06:10:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

    SNIP
    :
    :Did you try Master Instruments they still sell a battery with that model number
    http://www.master-instruments.com.au/products/54542/411.html If you have trouble
    buying from them directly I think battery world is there more retail arm.


    Thanks. I know Batteries Plus is the MI distributor in Perth but they tend to
    charge more than WES for the same item.

    If you go to the WES website and have a look at page 518 of their on-line
    catalogue you will see the 411 battery. Compare the picture with the MI page for
    their product http://www.master-instruments.com.au/products/54542/411.html

    Do they look similar?

    On the MI page the link to the data sheet shows documentation for original
    carbon zinc Eveready 411, even though the red plastic case item marked Unicell
    UG411 made in singapore, is listed under Alkaline Batteries. I visited the
    Unicell website
    http://www.unicell.com.sg/mainsite/index.php?page=batteries&size=12 but was
    unable to locate the UG-411 anywhere. Am awaiting a reply from them as to its
    availability.
     
  3. Phil Allison

    Phil Allison Guest

    "Ross Herbert"

    ( snip sad story)

    ** Two recipes:

    1. Take two 9V Energizers and a 3.9 volt zener - use shrink plastic to
    make one unit.

    2. Take the 6 individual cells from two 9V Energizers ( smaller versions of
    the AAA size ) and use 11 of them ( a row of 5 and a row of 6) to make a
    new battery. Cover in shrink as above.

    My idea involves wire leads soldered to the original battery terminals.

    It should be years before you need to repeat the exercise.



    ..... Phil
     
  4. Ross Herbert

    Ross Herbert Guest

    :
    :"Ross Herbert"
    :
    :( snip sad story)
    :
    :> Since I still needed a replacement battery I called in at Malz and bought
    :> a
    :> miniature MN27 12V battery and a 2032 3V Lithium cell ...
    :
    :
    :** Two recipes:
    :
    :1. Take two 9V Energizers and a 3.9 volt zener - use shrink plastic to
    :make one unit.
    :
    :2. Take the 6 individual cells from two 9V Energizers ( smaller versions of
    :the AAA size ) and use 11 of them ( a row of 5 and a row of 6) to make a
    :new battery. Cover in shrink as above.
    :
    :My idea involves wire leads soldered to the original battery terminals.
    :
    :It should be years before you need to repeat the exercise.
    :
    :
    :
    :.... Phil
    :

    Thanks Phil.

    I had thought of using the 2 x 9V battery and zener trick but there just isn't
    space in the meter for 2 of them. I hadn't thought of stripping 9V batteries
    down and using the individual cells to make a 15V though. Good idea and will
    give it try.
     
  5. Yaputya

    Yaputya Guest

    There was an item on this in Silicon Chip last year (Nov. page 60)
    Here is the text:
    ************************************************************************
    Battery replacement for an AVO Mk.8 multimeter
    The revered British AVO multimeter employed a 15V battery which
    is now expensive and hard to obtain.
    I happened to be in one of the many $2.00 shops in NZ and spied
    a pack of five CR2032 cells for the princely cost of $2.00.
    Ensuring that they had a long expiry date, I purchased a couple of packs.
    Five such cells gave 15V (16.7V actually),exactly what is required
    for the AVO. They were fitted into a 15mm length of 12mm (inside measurement)
    PVC conduit. You need to reshape the battery contacts as shown in the photo.
    It is then an easy 'task to fit the batteries, making sure you get the
    polarity correct. Finally, pack a little foam plastic, as per the photo,
    around the battery area.
    Editor's note: using stacked lithium cells to provide 15V is a good idea when
    low current (<190uA) is required. The cells have a nominal 240mAh capacity
    down to 2V. CR2025 cells could also be used but are of a smaller capacity.
    J. Barry Grumwald,
    Kaitaia, NZ. ($20)
     
  6. Yaputya

    Yaputya Guest

  7. Ross Herbert

    Ross Herbert Guest

    :I just found some more info on this...
    :http://www.richardsradios.co.uk/avo8.html
    :
    :>
    :>>I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going
    over
    :<snip>
    :

    Thanks for those articles. Most helpful.

    Ross
     
  8. Phil Allison

    Phil Allison Guest

    "Yaputya"

    ** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium button
    cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives me the *willies* - and
    I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.

    That such an arrangement would ever exhibit the needed long term reliability
    is *optimistic* in the extreme.

    If Ross H goes for my #2 recipe ( using 11 cells taken from 9V Energizers )
    then he ought to carefully SOLDER leads from each PLUS to the MINUS of the
    next cell in the chain.

    Along with soldered leads to the terminals inside his meter, that out to
    bring a smile to the jaded face of Mr Murphy.

    BTW:

    " How Mr Murphy died:

    One dark evening (in the U.S.), Mr Murphy's car ran out of gas. As he
    hitchhiked to a gas station, while facing traffic and wearing white, he was
    struck from behind by a British tourist who was driving on the wrong side of
    the road. "



    .... Phil
     
  9. Yaputya

    Yaputya Guest

    I don't see why it would be such a problem - it isn't really any different from a
    big torch with several C or D cells in series, passing a lot more current and only
    connected by the pressure of a spring in the base. Many LED torches and laser
    pointers also use several button cells in series in the same way, relying only on
    spring pressure. Have you experienced a particular problem with Lithium cells?
    In the Barry Grumwald article (SC Nov 2011 page 60) the cells are held in place
    co-axially by PVC conduit, in the laser pointers etc. that I have seen the multiple
    button cells are also held in place by a similar plastic tube.
    Although I haven't built the exact battery as described in the SC
    article by Barry Grumwald (no need - I don't own an AVO!) I don't see why
    it would exhibit any more long-term problems than a common 3 or 4 cell torch.
    In Barry's design the pressure from the compressed foam pushing on the
    reshaped battery contacts should be enough to make reliable electrical contact,
    especially as the current involved is less than 190 microamps
    Of course soldered connections are going to be more reliable but I think
    you would agree that your solution involving dissecting the 9V batteries
    and soldering the individual cells is messy and could even damage the cells.
    The Barry Grumwald idea makes it much easier to replace the cells
    when they go flat - no need for more messy soldering.
     
  10. Phil Allison

    Phil Allison Guest

    "Yaputya"

    ** But you are an ass.

    **** off.
     
  11. Ross Herbert

    Ross Herbert Guest

    :
    :** Two recipes:
    :
    :1. Take two 9V Energizers and a 3.9 volt zener - use shrink plastic to
    :make one unit.
    :
    :2. Take the 6 individual cells from two 9V Energizers ( smaller versions of
    :the AAA size ) and use 11 of them ( a row of 5 and a row of 6) to make a
    :new battery. Cover in shrink as above.
    :
    :My idea involves wire leads soldered to the original battery terminals.
    :
    :It should be years before you need to repeat the exercise.
    :
    :
    :
    :.... Phil
    :

    I finished by going for a variation of recipe 1.

    I used 2 of GP Batteries 12V 23AE http://www.gpbatteries.com/pic/GP23AE.pdf
    ($2.50 ea) in series with a 9.1V zener. Used the zener to link between the +ve
    and -ve end of the two batteries and soldered the terminal plates from the
    original Eveready 411 via short leads to the respective ends of the combination.

    I used the red and black end plates along with 2 of the cardboard insulators
    from the original and epoxied them to the ends of the battery before
    heatshrinking overall. It is only about 1mm longer than the original but that is
    no problem at all. Solid as a rock and works well.

    I now have to repeat the exercise for the AVO 8.

    Thanks for the
     
  12. Yaputya

    Yaputya Guest

    Phil hasn't taken his pills today.
     
  13. Yaputya

    Yaputya Guest


    Others have been pissed off with Phil, his abuse knows no bounds.....
    The following is the result of a simple search.....

    The Phil Allison Song

    Posted in aus.hi-fi and sung to the tune

    "I still call Australia home"

    I've been to Hospitals that didn't close down,

    From Melbourne to Sydney and Old Hobart Town,

    But no matter how far or how wide I roam,

    I still call my Psyche Ward home.



    In there my room is so cosy and clean,

    And when there's a full moon my hair grows for free,

    And no matter how much I type alone,

    I still call my Psyche Ward home.



    Out there the world can be so cold ,

    With Nazis in brown boots, and autistic monkeys everywhere,

    But when you get medication and special care,

    It's good to know where your Journey ends.

    One day we'll all be together I'll see,

    when all hi fi's turn into Quads just for me,

    And I'll see Peter Walker wherever I roam,

    Cause I still call my Psyche Ward,

    still call my Psyche Ward,

    still call my Psyche Ward.....home.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.artikcommunity.biz/showthread.php?t=101636

    Hot Chip please reconsider your abuse to Philthy. He only talks like this

    to get the attention he craves and all you are doing is feeding his ego.

    Also as he suffers form a Bipolar Disorder and at times is quite

    certifiable.

    Philthy is a very sad little old man in his late 50's with no family (except

    a retarded sister) who lives alone in a rented bed-sit in the back blocks of

    Sydney. He has no qualifications (not even a driver's licence) and is a

    backyard, small domestic appliance repairer. He is also called Toaster Boy

    as a term of endearment ;-) Philthy squandered a fully funded scholarship

    to Sydney uni in the early 70's and has a chip on his shoulder ever since.

    He is even still technically a virgin having never been married or even had

    a girlfriend but he did go to Catholic Boys school though ;-)

    So this sad, pathetic creature sits at home all day playing at being someone

    of importance while at his keyboard pretending his backyard "hobby" repair

    business is actually successful.

    So my advice is, let it drop and ignore him. Or if you live in Sydney drive

    around and visit him and discuss your concerns face to face. I have offered

    to come over and play baseball or cricket with him but he has declined my

    generous offers. Once I even offered to take him Shark fishing in Sydney

    Harbour and he declined that too ;-) No pleasing some people eh? ;-)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Hi DavidW

    This is why I killfiled him long ago. He is incapable of handling any
    situation where an opinion differs from his, or his perception of the poster
    having less knowledge than his self-measured standard, without a hysterical
    stream of foul language and a direct attack on the person concerned. You
    have to be sorry for such a dysfunctional person, or angry with whoever made
    him turn out like that. I believe he may some (probably incomplete)
    knowledge of electronics and I for one would have asked for his advice from
    time to time. But having read the quality of most of his replies, I think
    not....



    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ask Philthy why he left his bed-sit in Lackey St. Summer

    Hill? Apparently the neighbour put up security cameras to

    watch all the unusual comings and goings into Philthy's flat

    and that drove him insane. Well..... errrrrrr..... say no

    more ;-)

    So neighbours have had a few wins with our little resident

    psycho ;-) Not mention I'm sure he gets sick to death of

    being punched in his smutty, big mouth!

    Cheers TT

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would strongly suggest that drastic action not be used but by all means

    give him a call. He is listed in the Sydney White Pages under Phillip

    (Martin) Allison

    8 Tintern Rd Ashfield NSW 2131 (02) 9799 8242

    BTW when you have a look via Google Maps at the dingy flats he lives in have

    a look across the road and you will see a park and some public toilets.

    Nothing like being near to where the action is eh? ;-)

    BTW did you know that Philthy has actually posted "Wanted Dead or Alive"

    threads to aus.hi-fi and offered money for information on an anonymous

    poster?!

    Cheers TT
     
  14. Guest


    Hi Ross,

    I just bought one of these on ebay to add to my multimeter collection but it requires some repairs as it has been modified inside. Do you by any chance have a circuit for this model.
     
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