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Essay On Summers Comments On Women In Science

Discussion in 'General Electronics' started by Steven O., Apr 9, 2005.

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  1. Guest

    Your essay is exactly the rhetoric that is done to avoid discussing
    the real problem.
    This is a contradiction. Math types don't really like running
    businesses because it involves politics which implies that
    one's success relies completely on social interaction done well.
    I have spent the last 10 years trying find the geeks and
    pointing their itch and how many different ways they can
    scratch it. Most of the time all I need to do is observe
    that they have the itch and give them permission to scratch
    it. I don't even have to say more than one sentence about
    the "how" of the biz.

    The most amazing thing is that all they need is permission.
    Now, think about that in depth. You'll begin to define
    the real problem. EEO was designed to withhold that permission.

    /BAH

    Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
     
  2. Guest

    I can tell you that. It's the branch of science that has
    the most production potential for continuation of the species.

    Then the biology biz has changed a lot since I went to school.

    To get a biology degree back then one ended up with almost
    a chemistry major just for the prerequisites one had to take.
    A bio major also had to have physics. As an undergrad I had
    to do a hell of a lot of math when I took my bio, chem, and
    physics labs.

    OTOH, the medical profession isn't as rigorous.
    Then you know nothing about genius and how they think and work.

    The geniuses I knew and studied were not like this. A genius
    has a broad view of existence and is able to apply one idea in
    on area to subjects that are completely different.
    Then you are part of the problem. Progress of science does depend
    on this longterm. Where are the bright ones going to find
    mentors who concentrate on a particular subject? In the past,
    this function evolved within the universities and it was called
    grad school.

    My efforts over the last 10 years has been to preserve knowledge
    because I have watched huge amounts be completely destroyed.
    Your attitude will ensure that the infrastructure established
    to pass knowledge from one generation to the next will be destroyed.
    Sigh! They have been working in the sciences way before the
    activity had a name.
    Why are you measuring production based on Hollywood star values?
    NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE!!!!! The only ones _you notice_ are the
    young odd males.
    There are days when I would like to knock your sexist blinkers
    off your head, but then I become compassionate and decide not
    to because you wouldn't be able to handle the truth. Since
    I feel like a real bitch this morning, flick...

    /BAH

    Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
     
  3. Lloyd Parker

    Lloyd Parker Guest

    Not from my experience. The top students in my chem classes are almost
    always women.
     
  4. Lloyd Parker

    Lloyd Parker Guest

    But in college, men are far more likely to party and drink than women too.
    A think a lot depends on the expectations the school and the instructor
    communicate to students. My expectations are that women will do as well as
    the men, and that's what happens.
     
  5. Lloyd Parker

    Lloyd Parker Guest

    And "women can't do science" isn't dogma?
     
  6. Lloyd Parker

    Lloyd Parker Guest

    When's the last time he taught science or math?
    And if he'd said that about blacks or Jews instead of women?
     
  7. Lloyd Parker

    Lloyd Parker Guest

    OTOH, relegating a gender to second-class status is a mark of religious
    fundamentalism.
     
  8. In the land of PC any discussion of inherent or intrinsic ability or
    inclination is taken as prima-facia evidence of Fascism. Any test in
    which women do poorly (such as muscular power) or in which "persons of
    color" do poorly (i.q. tests) is prima-facia evidence that the test is
    (1) wrong; (2) irrelevent (3) biased. Any hint that some people are
    better at somethings than others is evidence of Evil.

    In the land of PC only Shi'ite egalitarianism is on the paths of
    righteousness.

    Bob Kolker
     
  9. Lloyd Parker

    Lloyd Parker Guest

    Oh I agree, but there are those who, as we've seen, believe women CANNOT
    compete, inherently.
     
  10. No one has relegated a gender to anything. Admission to college is on
    basis of test scores and recomendations. Admission to grad school is on
    the basis of merit. Publishable papers are judged without regard to the
    gender of the author.

    There are no legal impediments to wymyn entering the sciences. They have
    to compete with males and it is a case of the best human winning. If Ed
    Witten were Edwina Witten she would be just as smart.

    Bob Kolker
     
  11. Who says women can't do science? That is so... so... retro.

    Bob Kolker
     
  12. Guest

    Yes, yes and yes. Exactly.
    Beware of any movements which are about "righteousness".

    Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
    | chances are he is doing just the same"
     
  13. There are days when I would like to knock your sexist blinkers
    off your head, but then I become compassionate and decide not
    to because you wouldn't be able to handle the truth. Since
    I feel like a real bitch this morning, flick... <<

    Indeed, reading your replies put me in mind of the Monty Python skit.

    I'd like an arugment, please.
    You don't want an argument.
    Yes, I do.
    No, you don't.
    Yes I do.

    Unfortunately, I'm not in the mood to argue with somebody who just
    wants to argue. I've just finished filing a number of patents,
    publishing an abstract with a university team, and am in the process of
    trying to coordinate the manufacture of a completely new
    pharamaceutical product. I understand teamwork and innovation, thanks.
    As for the "rigor" of various disciplines, I can directly compare a
    few. I have a medical degree, but also have an ACS chemistry degree,
    with the minor in physics, so I had to take a lot of biology courses on
    cram to get into medical school when I finally decided to do it. I
    found the equivalent-level biology easier. But that may only be a
    personal thing. And medical school itself is really two different
    schools, each with a completely separate skill set required in each.
    Few people do it all well. I've since worked and collaborated with a
    very broad range of scientists in various fields, and have found that
    all of them are smart, but in a shocking variety of different ways.
    Most are regular guys in most ways.

    As for *Genius,* I've met a few people like Gell Mann, and I'm still
    not sure what "genius" is supposed to be, Gleick's essay
    notwithstanding (I never met Feynman, but heck, neither did Gleick).
    Plenty of people are very good at one thing. Universal genius types
    like Ben Franklin are very very very rare indeed, and are amazing, but
    aren't strictly necessary. Somebody said that a "genius" is a guy who
    has TWO really outstandingly good ideas in a lifetime. But science and
    the rest of humanity progress fine with bright people like Darwin, who
    only have one. And if Darwin had never been born, there was still
    Wallace. Probably no single person advances or holds back progress by
    more than a few years. The great organizers are possible exceptions,
    but even they are replacable.

    You did say one worthwhile thing in your other answer, which is that a
    lot of progress involves merely giving talented people *permission* to
    act. That is profoundly true. Institutions do it poorly, however,
    except possibly during desperate times (wars and such). Even centers
    of isolated inovation in peace like the Lockheed Skunk Works and NASA
    were driven by the cold war. And even they decay with time. Probably
    they are driven by a few special people, the David Kellys or the Werner
    von Brauns or whatever, and they drift when these people go, as Los
    Alamos did when Oppenheimer left. And the Kellys and the von Brauns and
    even the Leslie Groves' have a talent for organization, and a talent,
    sometimes called leadership, which allows them to appear to "give
    permission" for other people to follow their wild ideas into reality.
    But that's not universal genius. It's a talent, sure, but the people
    who have it are people like Kelly and von Braun, not Ben Franklin.
    They're smart, but hardly universally so (Oppenheimer comes closer to
    being a genius, but even he needed Groves to make a perfect team). The
    ability of leaders of innovation teams to get things done involves
    using other talented people the way a conductor uses an orchestra. The
    result can be amazing if it's done well, but when it is, there's still
    no more genius in the conductor than there is in the individual
    musicians. The conductor's just the schmuck up front with the extra
    large ego. In science, they give this guy the Nobel Prize when his team
    wins, as they did Carlo Rubio, but mainly because they have to give it
    to SOMEBODY, and the guy up front with the ego is the only choice.

    SBH
     
  14. Steve Turner

    Steve Turner Guest

    I don't buy it. I have known women who are obsessive about hobbies,
    but their hobbies are different -- things like knitting and craft
    stuff. Artistic pursuits, though sometimes also with a functional
    result (quilting, for e.g.). Painting, sculpture. Their level of
    devotion to these things can match any man's love of his craft, IMO.

    I have been to many hamfests (amateur radio swap meets) and have yet
    to see a single women buying something. I have never seen a female
    computer hardware hobbiest. I have seen few female engine
    enthusiasts. There are female shooters out there, but they tend to
    engage in the hobby for utilitarian (self-defense) reasons rather than
    love of guns or marksmanship. Female motorcycle enthusiasts are rare.

    Steve Turner
     
  15. There is little questionable about the observation that male students
    receive more attention from their teachers than female students in the
    same class. What controls are you using to rule out the obvious causal
    relationship? When someone runs a controlled experiment I'll be
    impressed by the differences in standardized test results.

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

    Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
    domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
    reply to
     
  16. Really? Did he mention the studies of teacher behavior in classrooms?

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

    Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
    domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
    reply to
     
  17. Guest

    I know this is your reaction which is why I never address the problem.
    I know you understand how to get some things done. I also know
    that you are quite clever. I also know that you do not apply your
    training when you think about certain subjects; you are hardwared
    to skip all the sanity checks.

    The only reason I picked on this is because somebody has to say
    no and this particular subject is one of the weeds that I intend
    to eradicate. (you can stop laughing now, Mati).

    Medical requirements were always easy compared to a real bio degree.
    I use a particular measurement to distinguish between very clever
    and genius. It's worked so far.
    That's not genius by my definition.
    That's not leadership. People often confuse the two. Some people
    call it herding cats. The real good cat herders know how to
    keep all the cats voluntarily corralled. Leadership occurs
    among the workers. If you rely on a manager for your leadership
    then the organization is already halfway down the slippery slope.
    Oppenheimer, like all productive people, needed a bullshit
    umbrella so that one could spend 100% of their time and energy
    doing the real work rather than asslicking.
    You don't understand how things work when there's a bunch
    of productive people :-(.
    That's one of reasons I don't like "prizes" and shit. Look at
    this newsgroup and see how much people concentrate on the
    "number 1" of some random evaluation list. However, human
    beings don't seem to be able to admire people for the unseen
    work they do finish but lap it up if there is glitz, glamour,
    and a tad of drama in the mix.

    Would you rather learn from a text that Einstein used and
    made notes or would you rather learn from a text that contains
    all of the refinements done after Einstein's evolved through
    the physics biz?

    /BAH

    Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
     
  18. Guest

    I finally got out yesterday. The essay wasn't available and I'm not
    savvy enough to finger out Mishit balks.

    I did read, finally, what the guy actually said. I still
    give him an E rating of mentioning gender even though he
    asked to talk about it and it would take a very clever person
    to leave the genderness out.

    It also verified my gut reaction that the intelligensia's outrage
    was truly smoke and mirrors designed to ignore the real problems.

    I was puzzled by his term "socialization". What he talking about
    promotions, where promotions mean going from a lower job
    classification to the next higher job classification? It was
    also clear that this guy also didn't know how to recognize
    work done well.

    /BAH

    Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
     
  19. Guest

    Well, here is where we differ. I give him A+++ for mentioning gender
    because it was high time somebody gets this cat out of the back.
    Thinking that "if it is not mentioned, the issue is not there" is
    naive. It is very much there. On the other hand I give him F--- for
    backing off and apologizing.
    Of course.
    Ehh? Socialization occurs nearly from birth. This is the process
    through which child turns from animal to human.
    Possible, but I don't think it is much relevant.

    Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
    | chances are he is doing just the same"
     
  20. Guest

    Really. Given that the vast majority of teachers, through elementary
    and even middle school are female, are you still willing to claim the
    above? I would rather say that they receive more "negative
    attention", as in closer scrutiny of their behavior, through this
    period. And these are the formative years. So, I would rather say
    that "there is a hell of a lot of questionable, in the above".

    Besides, this is, plain and simple irrelevant to the topic. You
    appear to attempt to steer towards the "nature versus nurture" issue,
    but this is *not* the issue, sorry. If you've, say, two ethnic groups
    such that in one of them one in fifty males reaches a height of 6'6" or
    above, while in the other only one in five thousand reaches such height,
    then this may have to do with genetic factors, but on the other hand
    it may be a result of nutritional differences. But, by the time
    you're getting to the NBA draft, it is the situation at hand, not the
    causes, that matters. So one of this groups will be much heavier
    represented than the other and no, this is not discrimination.
    Similarly, if you've one ethnic group where the kids study dilligently
    and do their best to excel in school, this may (not, I say "may", not
    "is") be purely cultural affect with no genetic underpinnings. But,
    by the time it comes to university faculty requitment, it does have an
    effect and no, again, it is not discrimination.

    As for the differences in standard deviations, mentioned above, as I
    recall they appear pretty constant accross various cultures with
    widely different standards of upbringing. This rather seems to weight
    against a purely social effect.

    Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
    | chances are he is doing just the same"
     
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