ESR kit builders wanted

[William Sommerwerck]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 03:43:45 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"

You are absolutely correct. That is why our kit has a solder-masked
board. We also made it a bit larger than the old Dick Smith kit to
get better spacing between pads. All of that adds cost but we hope
to be able to keep the price down.

Even so, the first two that I have built had solder bridges. But I am
a crappy solderer with lousy eyesight. That makes me a good tester
doesn't it?

Of course. So why are you soliciting testers? <grin>

Here's another reason why you might want to consider me for the
"experienced" role.

Back in 1980 I assembled several Hafler XL-280 amps. There was one spot
where the otherwise-excellent instructions got Really Dumb. The sequence was
clearly "wrong". I asked the writer -- the late, lamented Bob Tucker, who'd
done many of the Dyna manuals -- what was going on. He explained that one of
the requirements to reduce assembly errors was to minimize the number of
unsoldered connections at any one time.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Might I make a suggestion for "improving" the kit?

I assume the "good capacitors" chart is mounted on the outside, where it can
be dirtied or damaged. You might want to provide an online PDF so customers
can easily replace the chart, or make copies they can tack to the bench
shelf, or hold at the distance appropriate to their myopic or presbyopic
vision.

I'm curious as to why the test leads and clips are the same color. Shouldn't
one be black, the other red?

By the way, your explanation of ESR is clear and (generally) well-written
(suck, suck, suck). Just make your sentences a bit shorter (eg, break up
compound and complex sentences). Then they'll be perfect. (Salieri)

 

[Smitty Two]

You are absolutely correct. That is why our kit has a solder-masked
board. We also made it a bit larger than the old Dick Smith kit to
get better spacing between pads. All of that adds cost but we hope to
be able to keep the price down.

Even so, the first two that I have built had solder bridges. But I am
a crappy solderer with lousy eyesight. That makes me a good tester
doesn't it?

John

And yet *another* reason to use liquid flux. It's virtually impossible
to bridge things while using it.

 

[John Bachman]

Might I make a suggestion for "improving" the kit?

Sure, all suggestions are welcomed.

I assume the "good capacitors" chart is mounted on the outside, where it can
be dirtied or damaged. You might want to provide an online PDF so customers
can easily replace the chart, or make copies they can tack to the bench
shelf, or hold at the distance appropriate to their myopic or presbyopic
vision.

I will do that. One of the things that we changed this time is that
chart. The original Dick Smith unit had a chart of numbers that Bob
had found somewhere. That chart was a source of confusion for those
"less experienced" users.

This time I have made a graph with maximum good values for some
capacitance values over a wide voltage rating range. I eagerly look
forward to feedback as to whether this is better, worse or whatever.

I'm curious as to why the test leads and clips are the same color. Shouldn't
one be black, the other red?

The leads are not polarized, hence the same color. I do wish that I
had picked black instead of red as that seems to fit the overall color
scheme better. I may change that after the spool of expensive red
test lead wire is used up.

By the way, your explanation of ESR is clear and (generally) well-written
(suck, suck, suck). Just make your sentences a bit shorter (eg, break up
compound and complex sentences). Then they'll be perfect. (Salieri)

Kudos and critiques should be directed to the author, Bob Parker. We
just stand on his broad shoulders.

John

 

[Arfa Daily]

I will do that. One of the things that we changed this time is that
chart. The original Dick Smith unit had a chart of numbers that Bob
had found somewhere. That chart was a source of confusion for those
"less experienced" users.

This time I have made a graph with maximum good values for some
capacitance values over a wide voltage rating range. I eagerly look
forward to feedback as to whether this is better, worse or whatever.

I would be interested to see that. I have used a Bob Parker (Dick Smith)
since they were first available, and I have never had any trouble relating
the chart of 'typical' values to the reality of the actual measurements. I
personally feel that the chart is a simple and reliable way of showing what
to expect, and I also think that right on the front of the instrument, was
the right place for it.

I'm not sure that by changing the chart to a graph, you are not going to be
attacking the symptoms, rather than the cause of "less experienced users' "
confusion. The measurement of ESR is not a precise thing, like measuring
frequency or voltage or resistance or whatever. With the best will in the
world, capacitor 'goodness' evaluation by reference to a measured ESR value,
requires a degree of interpretation, and that is only possible with
experience, so "less experienced user" and capacitor evaluation by ESR
measurement, are to some extent mutually exclusive concepts.

I would actually question the need for a casual amateur to own an ESR meter,
and also their ability to develop the 'feel' that is necessary to make
sensible use of one, given that they are unlikely to be using it on a daily
basis for finding a lot of examples of bad caps. As a professional servicing
instrument, I would heartily recommend one to anybody, and the original Bob
Parker would be the one of choice for value for money, and lack of ambiguity
of the display. If the 'new' version is anything like its predecessor, then
I'm sure that it will be a fine instrument, but one for casual amateurs ?
I'm not too sure ... Perhaps a good write-up on interpreting the results
obtained, may have equal or greater value than redesigning the chart that
has served so well, in my opinion, to date ??

Arfa

 

[John Robertson]

Bob Parker and I have put together what we think is the best ESR kit
yet. Before we release this product I would like a couple of techs to
build one to help us identify defects in our assembly manual,
procedure, etc.

I want two test builders, one experienced and one newbie.

If you are interested please email me at john at anatek dot mv dot com
Tell me a little about yourself, how long you have been repairing
electronics, what kit building experience you have, what ESR meter you
use (if any).

The selected builders will receive a kit and instructions just like a
buyer will. After you build your kit I will send you a short
questionairre about your experience, what problems you had,
suggestions on improvemnets, etc.

The meter you build will be yours to keep at no cost to you.

You can preview the meter at www.anatekcorp.com/blueesr.htm

TIA

John
AnaTek Corporation
The Electronic Repair Center at www.anatekcorp.com

Looks very nice, glad to see the kit will still be around.

If anyone wants to buy the previous Dick Smith/Bob Parker K7214 MK II
version I still have a few (30 odd) NOS ones left in stock...plus the
MOV modification is free for the remaining kits.

http://flippers.com/esrktord-form.html

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[Franc Zabkar]

Sure, all suggestions are welcomed.

I will do that. One of the things that we changed this time is that
chart. The original Dick Smith unit had a chart of numbers that Bob
had found somewhere. That chart was a source of confusion for those
"less experienced" users.

This time I have made a graph with maximum good values for some
capacitance values over a wide voltage rating range. I eagerly look
forward to feedback as to whether this is better, worse or whatever.

I'd be happy with either, although I would advise users of the
difference between standard caps and low ESR types. A low ESR SMPS cap
that satisfies the "worst case" chart may in fact be faulty.

The leads are not polarized, hence the same color. I do wish that I
had picked black instead of red as that seems to fit the overall color
scheme better. I may change that after the spool of expensive red
test lead wire is used up.

I use the ESR meter (mark 1) to test the ESR of batteries. It seems to
make no difference which way I connect the leads but I'm wondering
whether one way is actually better than the other. Maybe you could add
typical battery ESR values to your chart ???

- Franc Zabkar

 

[Arfa Daily]

I'd be happy with either, although I would advise users of the
difference between standard caps and low ESR types. A low ESR SMPS cap
that satisfies the "worst case" chart may in fact be faulty.

<snip>

Yes Franc, that's a good point in question, and ably demonstrates my
contention that the ESR meter is not a 'beginners' tool, and requires a
degree of detailed knowledge to be applied to the indicated result, to allow
a valid conclusion to be drawn as to whether the cap in question is indeed
at least out of spec, if not downright faulty.

Arfa

 

[Bob Parker]

I will do that. One of the things that we changed this time is that
chart. The original Dick Smith unit had a chart of numbers that Bob
had found somewhere. That chart was a source of confusion for those
"less experienced" users.

On the Mk1 meter, the chart was derived from the worst-case figures
in an old capacitor catalog.
The Mk2 meter's chart was the end result of night after night of
measuring and writing down the figures of all the electrolytic caps in
my big collection and more, then averaging them as best I could (some
big variations between even unused caps).
Most of the people who got confused were the ones who thought ESR is
the same as leakage current, and/or that a higher ESR reading is better.
I dunno why those people bought an ESR meter kit in the first place.

Kudos and critiques should be directed to the author, Bob Parker. We
just stand on his broad shoulders.

I've only got skinny little shoulders - goes with my 5' 7" height.

I'm also ridiculously busy, which is one reason I'm not seen on
newsgroups much these days. Please, no e-mails unless they're important.


Finally a big "Hi!!" to Mr Charles Schuler!! I'm still around, but I
rarely look at this NG unless someone tells me there's something I
should look at here.


Thanks
Bob

 

[Arfa Daily]

On the Mk1 meter, the chart was derived from the worst-case figures in
an old capacitor catalog.
The Mk2 meter's chart was the end result of night after night of
measuring and writing down the figures of all the electrolytic caps in my
big collection and more, then averaging them as best I could (some big
variations between even unused caps).
Most of the people who got confused were the ones who thought ESR is
the same as leakage current, and/or that a higher ESR reading is better.
I dunno why those people bought an ESR meter kit in the first place.

Hi Bob - good to see you on here again. Even if that original chart was just
cribbed from a catalogue, it has served me well over the years as a good
'indicator' of what to expect. And that, I'm sure, is all that any chart or
graph referenced to an ESR meter, can ever be. Using an ESR meter is a bit
science and a bit art and a bit experience, and if any one of those is
lacking, then I think the user will struggle to get meaningful results. That
said, I think your original design goes a long way to reducing the need for
the first two to something that is easily learnt. I expect that the new one
will be just as good.

Arfa

 

[Thomas Tornblom]

Please post a note when we can order a kit

I have never used an ESR meter, but it feels like a useful tool.

 

[John Bachman]

Please post a note when we can order a kit

I have never used an ESR meter, but it feels like a useful tool.

I expect to have the new design available Nov 26, maybe a day or two
earlier. You will be able to order it at
www.anatekcorp.com/blueesr.htm An "Add to cart" button will be there
when it is available, also a price. We will also offer it fully
assembled, tested and aligned.

If you are in a hurry you can still get the EVB kit at
www.anatekcorp.com/evb_esr.htm We have a few of them in stock. The
EVB meter is also a fine design by Bob Parker.


John

 

[[email protected]]

I expect to have the new design available Nov 26, maybe a day or two
earlier. You will be able to order it atwww.anatekcorp.com/blueesr.htmAn "Add to cart" button will be there
when it is available, also a price. We will also offer it fully
assembled, tested and aligned.

If you are in a hurry you can still get the EVB kit atwww.anatekcorp.com/evb_esr.htm We have a few of them in stock. The
EVB meter is also a fine design by Bob Parker.

John

I am interested in building your kit.

I am an electronic hobbyist; maintain my home stuff as much as
possible. Own instruments such as TEK 2336 Scope, Digital VOM and LCR
Meter. Used to fix home audio stuff, TVs etc. about 15 years ago.

As part of hobby, developed analog H/W interface between my Laptop
modem and cordless phone handset which worked and allowed me to
connect the modem to phone line from anywhere in the house within the
range of that cordless phone.

However, my hobby is managed as my time permits which is not on a day-
to-day basis.

Have read about Bob Parker's ESR meter article on the net. Found the
concept very interesting; Wanted to build that but it is not available
here locally.

I am a regular visitor to this NG and find some of the discussion
threads very stimulating.

Considering the experience and expertise that is around on this NG, I
may be considered as little experienced "Newbee".

Warm Regards,

Ravi.

 

[John Bachman]

I am interested in building your kit.

<snipped the rest>

Sorry, but you are too late. I have picked the testers from the many
volunteers.

Thanks for trying.

John

 

[[email protected]]

<snipped the rest>

Sorry, but you are too late. I have picked the testers from the many
volunteers.

Thanks for trying.

John- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No harm done. At least I can say I tried !!

With Warm Regards,

Ravi.