Engineering Environment

[Matt Meerian]

Hello Group,
I'm not sure if this is off topic, but I'd like to ask any engineering
professionals out there if they have worked at anyplace where the
engineers were super competitive with each other. If so, what were
the circumstances/conditions?
The places I have work have always been a cooperative environment,
engineers work together to solve a problem.
Cheers,
Matt Meerian
www.geocities.com/matt6ft9

 

[Jim Thompson]

Hello Group,
I'm not sure if this is off topic, but I'd like to ask any engineering
professionals out there if they have worked at anyplace where the
engineers were super competitive with each other. If so, what were
the circumstances/conditions?
The places I have work have always been a cooperative environment,
engineers work together to solve a problem.
Cheers,
Matt Meerian
www.geocities.com/matt6ft9

The real world is full of back-stabbers waiting to pick you off when
you make an error.

Particularly if you're an outside consultant brought in to fix the
woes of the incompetent staff ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jim,

Particularly if you're an outside consultant brought in to fix the
woes of the incompetent staff ;-)

That's a tough one. The first visit is often a real challenge. But it
all eases off a lot when the consultant never takes credit alone but
includes the crew, and never says "told ya so". Another thing I am
trying to convey is that I am in no way after one of their jobs. That is
often a strong underlying concern. Probably more so today than a couple
years ago.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Jim Thompson]

Hi Jim,

That's a tough one. The first visit is often a real challenge. But it
all eases off a lot when the consultant never takes credit alone but
includes the crew, and never says "told ya so". Another thing I am
trying to convey is that I am in no way after one of their jobs. That is
often a strong underlying concern. Probably more so today than a couple
years ago.

Regards, Joerg

Yep. The best way is to let the ring leader present the fix to the
boss and take the credit... I'm only there for the money any how ;-)

That way I get repeat business.

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

Hi Matt,

Engineers are usually a friendly and cooperative bunch. You should
compare to other folks. Once I saw two car sales guys in their shiny
suits starting to yell at each other. You know, the stuff that kids
should not hear. Then fists came out and some manager had to step in and
break it up. Whew.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Kevin Aylward]

In UK I always found that the good technical staffs operated
cooperatively.
Yes.

Usually driven by a common need to keep poor
managements off their backs.

No. This is simply whining. Engineers blame manages, managers blame
engineers.

Competition, i.e back-stabbing, only
ever appeared when a second-rater was attempting to move across to
the management ladder. regards

Doubt it. A back stabber wont let it be known. *Most* people are pretty
good back stabbers. There has been millions of years to perfect that
very useful trait.

Oh dear... it don't seem like my stuff
(http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html)has gotten through to
those that read this group

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Hi Matt,

Engineers are usually a friendly and cooperative bunch. You should
compare to other folks. Once I saw two car sales guys in their shiny
suits starting to yell at each other. You know, the stuff that kids
should not hear. Then fists came out and some manager had to step in
and break it up. Whew.

Like, and you think that don't happen in engineering? Dream on. happens
all the bloody time. By and large I have found all characters traits in
all professions, pretty much uniform spread. The 10,000's of design
engineers that shows he is as thick as two short planks by actually
enjoying and getting into watching say, football, is evidence enough
that he is the same as those beer swilling oil riggers.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

The real world is full of back-stabbers waiting to pick you off when
you make an error.

Everyone is a back stabber when the relevant situation arises. Its an
inescapable fact of Darwinian Evolution.

Particularly if you're an outside consultant brought in to fix the
woes of the incompetent staff ;-)

But the consultant is probably just as incompetent as the internal
staff, so there displeasure is understandable.

Everyone thinks that they are better than average, which is a
statistical impossibility.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Hello Group,
I'm not sure if this is off topic, but I'd like to ask any engineering
professionals out there if they have worked at anyplace where the
engineers were super competitive with each other.

All places are like this. However, it would be bloody daft for people to
make his obvious. One never shows ones hand.

If so, what were
the circumstances/conditions?
The places I have work have always been a cooperative environment,
engineers work together to solve a problem.

All places are like this as well, however this does not mean that people
are not still competing with each other. This is just a manifestation of
the prisoners dilemma. That is, a certain amount of mutual co-operation
aids ones own interests.

See http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html, if you want the
whole rundown.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

No. This is simply whining. Engineers blame manages, managers blame
engineers.




Doubt it. A back stabber wont let it be known. *Most* people are pretty
good back stabbers. There has been millions of years to perfect that
very useful trait.

Oh dear... it don't seem like my stuff
(http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html)has gotten through to
those that read this group

Wrong description.
Not backstabbers - arselickers.

--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

[Jim Thompson]

Jim Thompson wrote: [snip]

The real world is full of back-stabbers waiting to pick you off when
you make an error.

Everyone is a back stabber when the relevant situation arises. Its an
inescapable fact of Darwinian Evolution.

Particularly if you're an outside consultant brought in to fix the
woes of the incompetent staff ;-)

But the consultant is probably just as incompetent as the internal
staff, so there displeasure is understandable.

Everyone thinks that they are better than average, which is a
statistical impossibility.

Kevin Aylward

Except for me, I have a proven track record ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

Hi Kevin,

Like, and you think that don't happen in engineering? Dream on. happens
all the bloody time.

C'mon. I haven't had a fist fight in all the 20 years or so in
engineering. Even if someone said "Oh, now he's full of it" that was
always meant as a joke. The only time I become suspicious is if someone
lies because I can't stand that.

By and large I have found all characters traits in all professions, pretty much uniform spread. The 10,000's of design engineers that shows he is as thick as two short planks by actually enjoying and getting into watching say, football, is evidence enough that he is the same as those beer swilling oil riggers.

Or rugby in your country ;-)

Ok, got me there. Twice. I did work on an oil rig and I do like beer.
Don't like soccer or other ballgames though. But although oil rig folks
have a rough skin they are one of the most cooperative professionals I
ever worked with. They never let each other down and not just when
everybody's life might depend on it. They have ethics similar to
firefighters. Rank doesn't matter much either. Whether you are an
engineer or a roustabout, if you need a hand to get a piece of pipe
hooked up you'll get that help right away.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Walter Harley]

Everyone is a back stabber when the relevant situation arises. Its an
inescapable fact of Darwinian Evolution.

Kevin, I know you've put a lot of thought and study into the study of
Darwinian evolutionary theory, but that statement is patently false. It is
equivalent to saying "Everyone will have children when the relevant
situation arises." Clearly, many people don't, unless you use a circular
definition of "relevant."

We may have predispositions, but we can choose not to be bound by them.

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

Kevin, I know you've put a lot of thought and study into the study of
Darwinian evolutionary theory, but that statement is patently false. It is
equivalent to saying "Everyone will have children when the relevant
situation arises." Clearly, many people don't, unless you use a circular
definition of "relevant."

We may have predispositions, but we can choose not to be bound by them.

I wonder how many people Siddhartha stabbed in the back on his rise to Buddhahood?


--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org

 

[Joerg]

Hi Kevin,

Everyone is a back stabber when the relevant situation arises. Its an
inescapable fact of Darwinian Evolution.

That ain't so. I know you don't share this belief with me (wish you
would) but many people treat others nicely and without back stabbing
simply because the bible says they shall do so. If I were intent on
doing such mischief next week I should not be taking part in communion
at the next service.

But the consultant is probably just as incompetent as the internal
staff, so there displeasure is understandable.

Then the consultant wouldn't get repeat business and his other biz would
dry up as well. Good companies call in consultants when they are stuck
or need expertise they don't have at hand. That is smart behavior. In
the same way we go to the doctor when a health problem escapes our
explanation or lingers way too long.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Hello Group,
I'm not sure if this is off topic, but I'd like to ask any engineering
professionals out there if they have worked at anyplace where the
engineers were super competitive with each other. If so, what were
the circumstances/conditions?

Not competitive, anti competitive. A work atmosphere where the nail that
sticks up gets pounded down, so to speak.

The down side of competitive environments, when someone is the idiot
son-in-law of the boss, is that one actually has to accomplish something
in order to compete. Since this will eventually reveal this person's
shortcomings, competition is discouraged. They call it 'teamwork'.

You don't want to know the specifics of the situation or you might not
have the nerve to get on another airplane.

The places I have work have always been a cooperative environment,
engineers work together to solve a problem.

Most of the better outfits that I have worked for have encouraged each
person to excel to the best of their abilities. If one wants to call
this competition, that's fine. As long as the competition didn't involve
stepping on other people's toes, it was acceptable.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Hi Matt,

Engineers are usually a friendly and cooperative bunch. You should
compare to other folks. Once I saw two car sales guys in their shiny
suits starting to yell at each other. You know, the stuff that kids
should not hear. Then fists came out and some manager had to step in and
break it up. Whew.

Regards, Joerg

Of course *some* engineers are the type to say nothing, but harbor a
secret grudge for decades, picking that ideal time to even the score.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Jim Thompson]

Of course *some* engineers are the type to say nothing, but harbor a
secret grudge for decades, picking that ideal time to even the score.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Yes, There was a certain engineer at Motorola... took me 15 years, but
I guarantee you, I evened the score... he became unemployable ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[john jardine]

Hello Group,
I'm not sure if this is off topic, but I'd like to ask any engineering
professionals out there if they have worked at anyplace where the
engineers were super competitive with each other. If so, what were
the circumstances/conditions?
The places I have work have always been a cooperative environment,
engineers work together to solve a problem.
Cheers,
Matt Meerian
www.geocities.com/matt6ft9

In UK I always found that the good technical staffs operated cooperatively.
Usually driven by a common need to keep poor managements off their backs.
Competition, i.e back-stabbing, only ever appeared when a second-rater was
attempting to move across to the management ladder.
regards
jhon

 

[Kevin Aylward]

This is all mundane, secondary, statistical, socialogical population
stuff.
Yes.

It's tendencies and in-general's and feelings. All man-made.
Personality aspects are simply a question of degree.
There's no black or white, it's infinite shades of grey.
We all hold a *complete* set of personality building blocks.

Well, excluding those deemed ill. It does seem that some may inherently
have physical brain problems that prevent certain characteristics, but
these are reasonable rare to ignore in general discussions.

Any given individual can hide or display in variable amounts, any of
these indicators and will do so dependant on
genetic/cultural/environmental factors.
The exact mix of the building blocks at any give time, will define a
unique individual. Some small change in aggregate 'personality' may
be expected during that individuals lifetime
The *displayed* factors are all arbitrary and negotiable, with time,
society, culture and country etc.
e.g A back-stabbing done with elan and elegance in ancient Rome would
be applauded.

But.
From a modern day working POV, an educated technical person will have
sufficient sef-knowledge and control of their environment to realise
that personal benefit can accrue through enhanced displaying of those
particular personality factors that are in sympathy with similar
individuals working in a similar environment. The whole becomes more
than the sum of the parts. Exactly the same maths as, the
effectiveness of an army going up as the square of the number of
soldiers, times the individuals abilities. A technical individual may
well be a born natural bastard (I've known two) but will be aware of
this and will plan accordingly *without* jepordising their basic
group benefits. The person 'strong int' arm and thick in t'ead' will
display in a simple, direct but less beneficial manner.
It's just about man made society and "good" manners and all of it's
arbitrary.

Yes. This is a good summary of the situation.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.