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nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Latest said:
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
Winfield said:
The cost of making the changes I see necessary is not zero,
but it's quite small, perhaps 20% at most.

Let's assume a billion of these transformers with a $.1 cost increase.
That's $100m the consumers will have to spend.

But all those transformers will consume about one gigawatt less, that's the
equivalent of a normal power plant.

For a significant part of the world for a significant part of the year the
reduced losses will have to be made up for by heating systems.

--
 
W

Winfield

Jan 1, 1970
0
Playing around with the number of turns like that means a bigger winding
window to accommodate both primary and secondary, so the core will have
to be exponentially larger, just that much more material to increase the
cost. If you reduce the wire gauge, allowing higher than the established
industry standard current density in the wire, then you trade off the
low no-load quiescent power consumption for higher dissipation and less
than optimum efficiency at rated load, this adds even more to the cost
of ownership, and depending on the usage cycle profile may defeat the
intended purpose of the new regulations and waste energy. Your ideas are
in keeping with the simple-mindedness of the entire philosophy of
proposing all encompassing rules and regulations, a historically massive
failure and legacy of parasitic bureaucracy that should be abandoned.

As I indicated elsewhere in this thread, I think the problem
of high standby power consumption by large and small appliances
is serious. For example, my home consumes about 200 watts when
everything is turned off, costing me about $315 per year. As
for the need for regulations, manufacturers simply won't change
without them, and I don't feel sorry for them because they don't
suffer when all their competitors have to toe the same line.

As for the consumers who'll suffer from slightly higher prices,
consider the $3,150 per 10 years that I'm spending now (actually
no doubt much more given the way electricity prices continue to
go up and up), how much of that will I get back as I put in
place the new lower-standby-power electronics of the future?
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Jan Panteltje"


** **** off - you wog LIAR .


Sucking Win's cock is so revolting.





........ Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Fred Bloggs"

Your ideas are in keeping with the simple-mindedness of the entire
philosophy of proposing all encompassing rules and regulations, a
historically massive failure and legacy of parasitic bureaucracy that
should be abandoned.

** Correct.




...... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Winfield"



** God I hope someone shoots this ASD fucked pile of sub humans SHIT.




....... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Winfield the **** "


** God I hope some honest person shoots this pile of sub human ASD fucked
SHIT dead.

And all the pseudo academic, criminal cunts just like him.

Now.






....... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"nospam"
For a significant part of the world for a significant part of the year the
reduced losses will have to be made up for by heating systems.


** LOL !!!!!!

Zealots are SO narrow focussed ..........




....... Phil
 
Agreed. I think most of the damn wall warts we see around here are
recycled ship hulls, not grain oriented silicon steel. Sloppy 2 X 2
stacking of the core doesn't exactly improve performance - or failing
to insulate the through- lamination hardware, or inter winding
electrostatic shielding.

I worked for a custom linear supply manufacturer. We'd turn out some
transformers for clients - they were amazed that the same size
transformer that they were buying in bulk from overseas could be
replaced with something that ran so much cooler and had better
regulation.

One of our clients (Indian dude) asked for, and got, the winding
schedule (design) of a transformer we were making for his prototype
controllers. When he needed a lot of them, he passed the design to a
manufacturer in Indonesia and got back a truckload of junk that ran
hot and wouldn't meet his spec..

I loved it - slick guy figured he'd pull a fast one on us and shot his
foot in the process. He was committed to these little relay socket
controllers - the heat of the transformers wouldn't dissipate enough
to meet the environmental specs he was quoting. The styrene covers
would melt.


How did you discover he passed the design to Indonesia, and the stuff
they built ran too hot?
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mark said:
So the small benefit of these new power siupplies should be weighed
aginst

1) greater complexity
2) lower reliability
3) greater EMI
4) potential fire hazard?
5) potential shock hazard

Yes, this is a sensible approach to it. #1 isn't a significant drawback when
you consider that your typical Mr. Coffee today probalby has a quarter-million
transistors in its microcontroller alone, whereas #2 is a concern but
realistically needs to only be "good enough" -- have a MTBF somewhat longer
than the Mr. Coffee itself. #3-#5 are important and should follow various
regulatory agency rules -- which may well need updating.
Legislaters and politicians are not smart enough to be making these
decisions for us...

They're only supposed to be smart enough to get decent technical important to
those well-versed in the field. Granted, that's not always the way it
works...
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
So, the moral of the story is, use transformers with 220V primaries
to get 110V (440V primaries to get 220V), and de-rate the secondary
by a factor of two?

No, I think the moral is that the manufacturers should go
back and do it right. But, yes, if you want something you
can buy and use right now, that should be a fine solution.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
nospam said:
For a significant part of the world for a significant part of the year the
reduced losses will have to be made up for by heating systems.

I rather doubt that.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
As I indicated elsewhere in this thread, I think the problem
of high standby power consumption by large and small appliances
is serious. For example, my home consumes about 200 watts when
everything is turned off, costing me about $315 per year. As
for the need for regulations, manufacturers simply won't change
without them, and I don't feel sorry for them because they don't
suffer when all their competitors have to toe the same line.

As for the consumers who'll suffer from slightly higher prices,
consider the $3,150 per 10 years that I'm spending now (actually
no doubt much more given the way electricity prices continue to
go up and up), how much of that will I get back as I put in
place the new lower-standby-power electronics of the future?

I'm with you on this.

I wonder how many people have bothered to see how fast the meter spins when they
think everything's 'off'.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
"Eeyore"

** Read the damn link !!!!!!!!!!!!

I did. Elliot must be on drugs. What he wrote is complete nonsense.

I sympathise with the leakage current issue but it won't kill anyone or
anything.

Graham
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
** Completely WRONG.

Iron core transformers in external PSUs are about to
* disappear * - you ASS.

The REAL cost increase to the public may well be horrendous.

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/external-psu.htm

Rod's statements about linear transformers have been
shown to be wrong, and I and others have theory and
measurements to prove it. Why do you keep quoting
his web page as if it represents some kind of proof?

(Note, I take no issue with Rod's rants about SMPS
supplies, only with his hastily-drawn conclusion about
linear-transformer supplies. I have gone further and
read the 109-page RIS document, and see that it simply
states the Energy-Star specifications that were adopted
as a voluntary measure in January 2005. The mandatory
nature of the RIS proposal raises my eyebrows; I'd
want exceptions for low-sales-volume specialty items,
etc., especially if no replacements are available.)

Yes, there will be an impact on what manufacturers make,
but in fact they will simply be returning the smallest
transformers in their line to an efficiency level similar
to their large ones, in some cases, and just a little bit
better in others.

The famous "transformer formula" Bmax = 10^8 Vp / w Ae N
(B is in gauss and Ae in cm^2), tell us the maximum flux
in a core can be reduced by increasing core area Ae, and
by adding turns N. My measurements showed how doubling
N decreased the peak primary magnetizing current over 10x,
and reduced the transformer's standby power to 0.40 watts,
meeting the new regulation. That was the equivalent of
doubling the product Ae * N. Note, along with the lower
core losses come lower magnetizing-current copper losses.

The transformer size will certainly have to increase to
accommodate the increased copper and core. Transformer
manufacturers can make their best choice of the numbers,
and they can also increase their iron-lamination quality,
as others have pointed out.

It's crazy that small transformers now run at efficiency
levels of 6/7.3 = 82%, whereas big ones run at 97 to 98%.
That's 18% loss vs 2 to 3%, or at least 6x worse. How
can you claim that getting rid of 6x, doing exactly what
they already know how to do, is not worth doing or is an
unsurmountable problem?

I'm sure they thought we wouldn't care if the transformer
design wasted 1.3 watts, vs 0.4 watts (my measurements),
and knowing they'd save money and their competition would
do the same, they went ahead with the poor design. But
that 0.9 watts difference is costing me $14.20 / decade
(at today's rates), so I'll tell you, the dollar savings
or whatever they made doesn't look so sweet.

So damn yes, if it takes a government to fix that, great!
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
As I indicated elsewhere in this thread, I think the problem of high
standby power consumption by large and small appliances is serious. For
example, my home consumes about 200 watts when everything is turned off,
costing me about $315 per year. As for the need for regulations,
manufacturers simply won't change without them, and I don't feel sorry
for them because they don't suffer when all their competitors have to toe
the same line.

Dumb question, but did you unplug the fridge and the deep freeze for this
test? I find it a little hard to believe that a Mr. Coffee display and a
microwave display and the IR receiver in the TV could consume 200 watts!

Did you happen to track down any major culprits?

Thanks,
Rich
 
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