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R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
So I predict the transformer manufacturers won't have any trouble
making parts to meet the new rules. I for one will be glad to see it
and look forward to buying the new parts.

I wonder how they'll feel about raising their prices accordingly. :)

Cheers!
Rich
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Winfield Hill"
Phil Allison said:
In his web document, "The Humble Wall Transformer is the Latest
Target for Legislators," By Rod Elliott (ESP), Rod states,

"A mandatory energy rating requirement effectively bans all
presently available transformer based external supplies
because their magnetising current is higher than allowable.
In order to pass, the no-load dissipation must be less than
0.5W for supplies rated at less than 10W, or 0.75W for
supplies rated at between 10 and 250W. Most small
transformers draw a magnetising current of around 20-30mA,
and the range of power consumption I measured was between
1.1W up to 1.8W (this was verified with a fairly wide cross-
section of supplies at my disposal. The dissipated power is
directly related to the winding resistance, and also includes
iron loss - that amount of power needed to reverse the flux
in the core on each half cycle of the AC waveform)."


In my opinion, Rod is badly misinformed on this issue, and
perhaps by extension in his reading, then so would be Phil.


** What Rod Elliot wrote above is **completely correct** - backed up by
actual measurements and published data you can find in the supplied links.

Time the posturing pommy Wanker learned to bloody read !!!!

We found that typical manufacturers make rather efficient
transformers when they're making larger models, but when
they make small ones, e.g. 2.5 and 6VA, they really take
serious liberties saving on the relative amount of copper
and iron used.


** Shame how external, transformer based supplies, range from 1 watt up to
100 watts or more.

This allows the little buggers to dissipate
far more heat than necessary, compared to their size.


** Shame how this makes them economical to produce and have far better
voltage regulation than otherwise.

We speculated that they felt, hey, it's only dissipating 1.5W, or 2 or 3W,
so what's the problem?


** There is NO problem.

The whole idea of banning them is utterly STUPID !!.


It's trivial to greatly reduce the magnetizing current by
adding some primary turns and thereby staying much further
away from core saturation.


** Then the core size must be increased quite dramatically to achieve the
same VAs and regulation factors.

Then the core and copper losses increase again.

So I predict the transformer manufacturers won't have any
trouble making parts to meet the new rules. I for one will
be glad to see it and look forward to buying the new parts.


** Rod's comment was about " presently available " external transformer
based supplies - virtually all of which are
E-core types.

Such designs become inefficient unless operated near the core's saturation
limit.

The new rules require external PSUs to be unusually efficient, as well as
have very low off load power loss.

Taken together ( which Win has stupidly failed to do) this means that E-
cores are basically ruled out of the game.

Even the majority of *presently available* SMPS are ruled out of the game
!!!

Only new generation SMPS ( which basically cease to switch with no load)
will pass.

As I have noted here already - it is possible that in some VA ratings (
between say 7VA and 50 VA ) an R-Core design would make the grade PLUS be
able to meet Class 2 insulation requirements - which is also essential.

None on the horizon, anywhere I can see.




....... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Winfield Hill"
Phil Allison said:
In his web document, "The Humble Wall Transformer is the Latest
Target for Legislators," By Rod Elliott (ESP), Rod states,

"A mandatory energy rating requirement effectively bans all
presently available transformer based external supplies
because their magnetising current is higher than allowable.
In order to pass, the no-load dissipation must be less than
0.5W for supplies rated at less than 10W, or 0.75W for
supplies rated at between 10 and 250W. Most small
transformers draw a magnetising current of around 20-30mA,
and the range of power consumption I measured was between
1.1W up to 1.8W (this was verified with a fairly wide cross-
section of supplies at my disposal. The dissipated power is
directly related to the winding resistance, and also includes
iron loss - that amount of power needed to reverse the flux
in the core on each half cycle of the AC waveform)."


In my opinion, Rod is badly misinformed on this issue, and
perhaps by extension in his reading, then so would be Phil.


** What Rod Elliot wrote above is **completely correct** - backed up by
actual measurements and published data you can find in the supplied links.

Time the posturing pommy Wanker learned to bloody read !!!!

We found that typical manufacturers make rather efficient
transformers when they're making larger models, but when
they make small ones, e.g. 2.5 and 6VA, they really take
serious liberties saving on the relative amount of copper
and iron used.


** Shame how external, transformer based supplies, range from 1 watt up to
100 watts or more.

This allows the little buggers to dissipate
far more heat than necessary, compared to their size.


** Shame how this makes them economical to produce and have far better
voltage regulation than otherwise.

We speculated that they felt, hey, it's only dissipating 1.5W, or 2 or 3W,
so what's the problem?


** There is NO problem.

The whole idea of banning them is utterly STUPID !!.


It's trivial to greatly reduce the magnetizing current by
adding some primary turns and thereby staying much further
away from core saturation.


** Then the core size must be increased quite dramatically to achieve the
same VAs and regulation factors.

Then the core and copper losses increase again.

So I predict the transformer manufacturers won't have any
trouble making parts to meet the new rules. I for one will
be glad to see it and look forward to buying the new parts.


** Rod's comment was about " presently available " external transformer
based supplies - virtually all of which are
E-core types.

Such designs become inefficient unless operated near the core's saturation
limit.

The new rules require external PSUs to be unusually efficient, as well as
have very low off load power loss.

Taken together ( which Win has stupidly failed to do) this means that E-
cores are basically ruled out of the game.

Even the majority of *presently available* SMPS are ruled out of the game
!!!

Only new generation SMPS ( which basically cease to switch with no load)
will pass.

As I have noted here already - it is possible that in some VA ratings (
between say 7VA and 50 VA ) an R-Core design would make the grade PLUS be
able to meet Class 2 insulation requirements - which is also essential.

None on the horizon, anywhere I can see.




....... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Winfield Hill"
Phil Allison said:
In his web document, "The Humble Wall Transformer is the Latest
Target for Legislators," By Rod Elliott (ESP), Rod states,

"A mandatory energy rating requirement effectively bans all
presently available transformer based external supplies
because their magnetising current is higher than allowable.
In order to pass, the no-load dissipation must be less than
0.5W for supplies rated at less than 10W, or 0.75W for
supplies rated at between 10 and 250W. Most small
transformers draw a magnetising current of around 20-30mA,
and the range of power consumption I measured was between
1.1W up to 1.8W (this was verified with a fairly wide cross-
section of supplies at my disposal. The dissipated power is
directly related to the winding resistance, and also includes
iron loss - that amount of power needed to reverse the flux
in the core on each half cycle of the AC waveform)."


In my opinion, Rod is badly misinformed on this issue, and
perhaps by extension in his reading, then so would be Phil.


** What Rod Elliot wrote above is **completely correct** - backed up by
actual measurements and published data you can find in the supplied links.

Time the posturing pommy Wanker learned to bloody read !!!!

We found that typical manufacturers make rather efficient
transformers when they're making larger models, but when
they make small ones, e.g. 2.5 and 6VA, they really take
serious liberties saving on the relative amount of copper
and iron used.


** Shame how external, transformer based supplies, range from 1 watt up to
100 watts or more.

This allows the little buggers to dissipate
far more heat than necessary, compared to their size.


** Shame how this makes them economical to produce and have far better
voltage regulation than otherwise.

We speculated that they felt, hey, it's only dissipating 1.5W, or 2 or 3W,
so what's the problem?


** There is NO problem.

The whole idea of banning them is utterly STUPID !!.


It's trivial to greatly reduce the magnetizing current by
adding some primary turns and thereby staying much further
away from core saturation.


** Then the core size must be increased quite dramatically to achieve the
same VAs and regulation factors.

Then the core and copper losses increase again.

So I predict the transformer manufacturers won't have any
trouble making parts to meet the new rules. I for one will
be glad to see it and look forward to buying the new parts.


** Rod's comment was about " presently available " external transformer
based supplies - virtually all of which are E-core types.

Such designs become inefficient unless operated near the core's saturation
limit.

The new rules require external PSUs to be unusually efficient, as well as
have very low off load power loss.

Taken together ( which Win has stupidly failed to do) this means that E-
cores are basically ruled out of the game.

Even the majority of *presently available* SMPS are ruled out of the game
!!!

Only new generation SMPS ( which basically cease to switch with no load)
will pass.

As I have noted here already - it is possible that in some VA ratings (
between say 7VA and 50 VA ) an R-Core design would make the grade PLUS be
able to meet Class 2 insulation requirements - which is also essential.

None on the horizon, anywhere I can see.




....... Phil
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
Only new generation SMPS ( which basically cease to switch with no load)
will pass.

I doubt they'll have any difficulty making such "new generation"
controllers -- the switcher controllers aimed at low-voltage regulation have
had such features for years now, since of course people do care a lot about
battery life.
None on the horizon, anywhere I can see.

A lot of consumer electronics already comes with switchers, which suggests to
me that we're already pretty close to the tipping point where switchers are
about as cheap to build when everything (shipping weight, only needing one
model for worldwide input voltages, etc.) is taken into consideration.

It may be bone-headed legislation, but as I said before, it's at least trying
to mandate something that's technologically quite feasible without
extraordinary price increases, which is a lot better than what, e.g.,
automobile standards are sometimes set at.

When it comes to this sort of legislation, I think the biggest real problem
with compact fluorescent and switching wall warts is reliability and control
of failure modes -- something the legislation fails to address, it would
appear.
 
W

Winfield

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
** What Rod Elliot wrote above is **completely correct**
- backed up by actual measurements and published data you
can find in the supplied links.

Time the posturing pommy Wanker learned to bloody read !!!!

You are the one who should learn to read. I plainly stated
and backed up with theory and measurements that the reason
Rod observed such bad performance is because the transformer
manufacturers have taken liberties with their small versions.
(Rod measured merely these poor "standard" designs, without
critically analyzing them. You took his word as gospel.)

First, they make them less efficient than their larger ones,
and as we observed in threads past, this is rather grossly
apparent from observing the low copper-filling factor on the
bobbins. Second, to save money they avoided using very simple
techniques available for small low-power transformers, such as
more turns, to dramatically lower quiescent primary current.

The cost of making the changes I see necessary is not zero,
but it's quite small, perhaps 20% at most. But consider, if
a rule is passed mandating the changes, all the manufacturers
will be in the same place, and can make the changes without
suffering any disadvantage. (That's the very useful role that
a government and a regulator can play that industry can't do,
or has a hard time doing, unless a strong standards body gets
involved, for example.)

It's my belief the regulators consulted first with several
manufacturers to determine the feasibility before proceeding.
Or perhaps they read the relevant threads here on s.e.d. :)
 
W

Winfield

Jan 1, 1970
0
<[email protected]
"Phil Allison"





** In Australia, New Zealand, China and parts of Asia and part of the USA.



** The suggestion is that small R-Core or C-Core transformers can be made to
comply with the low standby power level.

Toroidal types are incompatible with Class 2 ( double) insulation
requirements.

....... Phil

WRONG.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Joel Kolstad = Fucking Idiot "
"Phil Allison"


I doubt they'll have any difficulty making such "new generation"
controllers -


** You need to take reading lessons too.

Notice - my comment above is written in the present tense.


A lot of consumer electronics already comes with switchers,


** You are a PITA SNIPPING IDIOT !!

My comment above was clearly about R- core transformers.

LEARN to READ !!!!!!!!!

DO NOT SNIP OUT THE CONTEXT !!!





....... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Winfield"



** So Win knows ****** all about this topic as well.

Pseudo academic pommy jerk off.




....... Phil
 
X

xyzzy

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Winfield Hill"



** What Rod Elliot wrote above is **completely correct** - backed up by
actual measurements and published data you can find in the supplied links.

Time the posturing pommy Wanker learned to bloody read !!!!

For the benefit of us yanks, what does pommy mean?
 
F

Fun Tyme

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
Even the majority of *presently available* SMPS are ruled out of the game
!!!

Only new generation SMPS ( which basically cease to switch with no load)
will pass.
...... Phil

Snipped to highlight a point....

I like the idea of SMPS which stop switching, and resume with output
load etc. - many idling SMPS make very strong signals at RF to 50+ MHz.

For a small signal radio listener to survive many of these supplies must
be turned off completely as they make terrible noise at HF and above.

Some make a broadband white noise and others a gurgling, swishing noise
which wanders all over the spectrum - worst offenders here are DVB-T
receivers and (especially) SAMSUNG colour televisions.

I turn all my SMPS and then I can hear those of neighbours...I hate the
stinking things !
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"xyzzy"
For the benefit of us yanks, what does pommy mean?



** Got any idea what Google is good for ?

Fuckwit .



... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Fun Tyme"
I like the idea of SMPS which stop switching, and resume with output load
etc. - many idling SMPS make very strong signals at RF to 50+ MHz.

For a small signal radio listener to survive many of these supplies must
be turned off completely as they make terrible noise at HF and above.


** Must be a ham radio freak.

But I agree that SMPS are a major cause of EMI.




....... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Eeysore"
Winfield wrote:



Indeed.

I know for a fact that Toroid International make them.


** Learn to read.

I did not say making a Class 2 toroidal is IMPOSSIBLE.

Making low VA, ** LOW COST ** toroidals that fully comply with Class 2
is simply not practical.

There are inherent incompatibility issues.





...... Phil
 
M

Mark

Jan 1, 1970
0
So the small benefit of these new power siupplies should be weighed
aginst

1) greater complexity
2) lower reliability
3) greater EMI
4) potential fire hazard?
5) potential shock hazard


If these switching supplies fail at even a slightly higher rate and
cause a few people to take a few extra rides CAR rides to get
replacements then the small energy savings will all be lost...

Legislaters and politicians are not smart enough to be making these
decisions for us...
Mark
 
X

xyzzy

Jan 1, 1970
0
"xyzzy"




** Got any idea what Google is good for ?

I was confused by what I find on the web. Apparently "pommy" is an
endearing term for Brits. But also I find:
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Fuckwit

which says that the term "fuckwit" is mainly used by British Wankers, and I
didn't think you were a British Wanker. So, I thought you were using
"pommy" in another sense, and I'd better ask you about it.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"xyzzy"


** Go look up " TROLL "


you sub human, ASD fucked MORON !!!





....... Phil
 
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