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Energy savings from increasing my A/C EER rating?

In alt.energy.homepower Robert Thompson said:
Is concrete thermally insulating? If the ground is very pourous, it has
trapped air, that air will be very insulating.

Yes, but how is it going to be a problem on the time scale of winter vs
summer?
On another note, Spy Sattelites can tell how much heat is being produced by
airconditioning equipment, (chillers etc).

Yes; we have a thermal imaging camera that we use on our fire department,
where we can detect a handprint on a concrete wall, a minute after the
hand has been removed. It's also nice for spotting hot-spots inside
walls, warm electric outlets and wires, and that sort of thing.
If you used a ground source and
burried it under the parking lot, would a Sattelite be able to detect it?

Maybe. Detectable is one thing; being insulative over a period of 6 months
is something entirely different.

Dave Hinz
 
In alt.energy.homepower Greg O said:
There are a lot of variables that can pop up concerning geothermal.
We have installed a few systems, most are doing well, providing cheap
heat/cooling for the customer. The one problem that arises in most systems
is matainance and repair. It seems maintenance the majority of the systems
need a major repair every few years that may off set the savings.

Yes, that's to be expected, I suppose, for what is essentially of
the same complexity as a central air conditioning system.

On the
other hand we have one customer that had a loop buried in his back yard. The
hole continued to fill with water even though it was a dry year. It seems
that surface water is moving through his back yard constantly!

Sounds like he's got some fantastic heat transfer going on, ten!
He claims he can heat and cool his home, 3500 square feet, North Dakota, for
$350 a year!

Hm...I've got a good sized back yard, which is torn up already, and
a backhoe. (yes, the torn up yard and the backhoe are related).
Maybe it's time to run some numbers.

Dave Hinz
 
P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hm...I've got a good sized back yard, which is torn up already, and
a backhoe. (yes, the torn up yard and the backhoe are related).
Maybe it's time to run some numbers.

Think about possibly just laying the pipe now, while the
yard's up - over-engineer it to the biggest size you think you might
want in the future.

Just laying the pipe and running the ends inside to your
possible use location wouldn't really cost all that much, I think.
Basically just some coils of tubing and a few odds and ends.

Cap them off for future ref :)



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
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Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
it's more efficient to move heat from the house into 50 degree ground than
into 90 degree air.

it's more efficient to move heat from the 50 degree ground into the house
than from 10 degree air.

ground source heat pumps rock (and hum)!
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
the surrounding ground and closeness to the air (6-8 feet) would prevent the
behavior of what you suggest. Have not seen this happen in real life. could
be an example of poor engineering?
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
This is silly. I've never seen a ground source heat pump (slinky coils)
exhibit this misbehavior. How many units have you installed?
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
our ground loops were normal yard dirt about 6 feet down. never had a freeze
up in NNY.
 
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pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
it's more efficient to move heat from the house into 50 degree ground than
into 90 degree air.

it's more efficient to move heat from the 50 degree ground into the house
than from 10 degree air.

ground source heat pumps rock (and hum)!

That's just because they don't know the words.




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~

Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
 
In said:
On 12 Jul 2003 15:49:37 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
Think about possibly just laying the pipe now, while the
yard's up - over-engineer it to the biggest size you think you might
want in the future. Cap them off for future ref :)

Hm. You've seen my house, it seems. Plastic conduit run through
the walls "for future use", a pair of RG6-U to each room "just in
case", cat-5 everywhere, a loop of hydronic tubing inside the front
porch, run into the point of use, and capped off "Just in case" I
want a self-shoveling front concrete stoop, and so on.

Although...maybe I should borrow the neighbor's trencher instead of
using the backhoe. A 24 inch wide trench is a bit overkill for
a loop of tubing. Thanks for your thoughts - now is actually a really
good time to be having this conversation.

Dave Hinz
 
In alt.energy.homepower Steve Spence said:
This is silly. I've never seen a ground source heat pump (slinky coils)
exhibit this misbehavior. How many units have you installed?

Evidence would seem to suggest that CM's experience is close to "zero"
in this regard, Steve. Seems to be centered around "The first one
done ever, froze the ground", which then seems to expand to "and therefore
nobody has figured out why, so they keep making the same mistake". I
reject that particular way of looking at things, myself.

Dave Hinz
 
P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hm. You've seen my house, it seems. Plastic conduit run through
the walls "for future use", a pair of RG6-U to each room "just in
case", cat-5 everywhere, a loop of hydronic tubing inside the front
porch, run into the point of use, and capped off "Just in case" I
want a self-shoveling front concrete stoop, and so on.

What, no fiber optic ??? :)
Although...maybe I should borrow the neighbor's trencher instead of
using the backhoe. A 24 inch wide trench is a bit overkill for
a loop of tubing.

Depends - look up 'vertical slinky' in this context. Or get
hold of a smaller bucket for the BH.... whatever, the dirt don't
care :)
Thanks for your thoughts - now is actually a really
good time to be having this conversation.

Yep. Right now it costs you just about nothing, in the bigger
picture.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~

Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
 
In said:
On 14 Jul 2003 14:34:49 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
(snip)

What, no fiber optic ??? :)

Well, I was going to run it "someday", which is mainly what the
empty plastic conduit is for, but I figured I'd wait in case I
wanted to go wireless (which I have).
Depends - look up 'vertical slinky' in this context. Or get
hold of a smaller bucket for the BH.... whatever, the dirt don't
care :)

Will do, thanks.

Dave Hinz
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
ah, but you seem to infer that all ground source heat pumps suffer from this
"aberration" when it was simply a sizing issue. You then came up with really
off the wall "solutions" to fix this "problem" that many of us have not seen
exist. How many install have you personally done?
 
In alt.energy.homepower CM said:
(I wrote, but CM failed to attribute properly,)
No, it was a case that an early attempt did freeze the ground, but
they did determined the cause of the problem and solved it. If you
refuse to learn from other people's mistakes, you have no one to blame
but yourself.

Right. So why do you bring it up as anything other than an early
failure? It's an underdesigned loop, too much delta-T, not enough
volume of dirt to supply heat to the system. You seem to be echoing
my point of about 2 posts ago.

A well designed system will not freeze the dirt around it. Agree,
or disagree?

Dave Hinz
 
In alt.energy.homepower CM said:
The earth is not a good thermal conductor. If it were, the temperature
deep underground would fluctuate much more with the seasons and the
earth's mantle would be cool and solid.

Your scaling is all off.
While some heat does enter your "reservoir" from deep underground,
from adjoining plots, and from water trickling through, if the heat
withdrawal continues to exceed the heat replacement, the temperature
must drop. Simple physics. If the temperature drops too low, the unit
stops working.

Please go do some math. Also, how many of these systems do you have
first-hand experience with? It's obvious that you're having difficulties
understanding the concept of heat transfer, and probably how heat and
temperature are related but distinctly different.

With a big enough loop, you can get a lot of heat transfer, with very little
temperature difference. With a big enough loop (enough ground contact) the
heat from the ground surrounding your loop, will keep the ground in contact
with your loop at a temperature consistant with the ground surrounding it.
The delta-T's aren't that high - we're talking a few degrees, not 20 or 30.

How many of these do you have first-hand experience with? Also, how
do you explain that for reasons contrary to your claim, the technology
seems to work anyway? A bigger question for you - we're just moving
heat around, right? Does that heat energy cease to exist when we put it
into a house?

Dave Hinz
 
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