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Energy savings from increasing my A/C EER rating?

J

Jim Caldwell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Our current 220 volt 23,000 BTU/HR home air conditioner has an EER of 8.5,
and I would like to know what the energy savings would be if we replaced it
with a unit of the same BTU/HR but with a 9.6 EER. The current A/C makes our
power meter literally spin like a top every time the compressor kicks in. Do
you have to double the EER in order to halve the power consumption?
 
P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
And the exponent is one.


Are you really in the heating and cooling business? :)

Nick

He doesn't know his bunnies from a hole in the ground :)



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P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
That sounds like a Well Ground-ed opinion.

I stand in awe. Can't touch that one !



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In alt.energy.homepower CM said:
If you want to use it for both summer cooling and winter heating, you
must balance the thermal load to prevent the ground from icing up or
overheating. Or, use separate areas of ground for heating and cooling.

So, are you saying that the ground where you're doing this can actually
get iced up from the heat exchange process?

Wouldn't that be a sure sign of an under-engineered loop? Heat transfer
spread over too small of an area, creating too large of a temperature
differential, and all that?

Dave Hinz
 
P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
Exactly what does that mean ,'balance the thermal load', and
how do you do it ? If it's winter, you're taking heat out, period.
If it's summer, you're putting heat in, period. Either your heat sink
area is sufficient to handle this, or it is not ( and thus undersized
).
Or, use separate areas of ground for heating and cooling.

How exactly is that going to help anything ?

Your'e still dumping all the heat in one place, and taking all
your heat out from another.

Sorry, your comment makes no sense.
So, are you saying that the ground where you're doing this can actually
get iced up from the heat exchange process?

Wouldn't that be a sure sign of an under-engineered loop? Heat transfer
spread over too small of an area, creating too large of a temperature
differential, and all that?

Or perhaps that it's cold out :)

Obviously, yes. the loop is under-sized or miss-applied.



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P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
um, you seem to have proved your first point quite nicely, but not
answered my question. I think you have no knowledge of this topic at
all.

Eric

I like the part about makeing permafrost :). I live in NC -
can I make some permafrost here ? :)

"Hey, Mr. Neighbor ! Turn that ground source heat pump off,
you're turning the street into permafrost !' :)

Geez.....



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P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
One of the first attempts to use a ground source heat pump was
installed in Michigan. It worked fine the first winter, but conked out
midway through the 2nd winter, and when they dug down to investigate,
they found Permafrost.

No, they found a frozen area. That is not 'Permafrost'.

It was due to , at that time, not knowing the design
requirements for the loop. Of course, these have since been analysed
with a great degree of accuracy and predictablity.
The ground is a thermal reservoir, not an infinite source, and the
input/output must be balanced. Using a larger loop area would mean
tapping a larger reservoir. If unbalanced, it would take longer to
stop functioning, but eventually it would stop functioning.

Horeshit. You propose a closed 'reservoir', which it is not.
The area the loop is in contact with is in turn in contact with the
entire planet, and heat is constantly being transferred in whichever
direction by conduction. The key to designing the loop is to make it
spread out over a large enough area such that the input of heat from
surrounding earth via conduction is sufficient to overcome the
'withdrawal' of heat by the system.



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P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
The ground is not an infinite source of heat, it is a reservoir. If
you keep removing more heat than is added, the reservoir will
eventually run empty. A larger reservoir simply delays the inevitable.

CM

Unless you propose that a GSHP may cause the entire planet (
your ' reservoir' ) to freeze because you sucked all the heat up into
your living room, this is nonsense.

If it ever does, open the window and let the rest of us warm
up some :-0




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P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you dig deep enough, you can tap an enormous reservior that may
last centuries. But even that is not infinite.

Yeh, but I'm pretty sure the pump will be out of warranty by
then anyway :)
Some of my "impressions" you wouldn't want to know.

I'd like to see your Henny Youngman. Do you do any
politicians ?




Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
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R

Robert Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, they found a frozen area. That is not 'Permafrost'.

It was due to , at that time, not knowing the design
requirements for the loop. Of course, these have since been analysed
with a great degree of accuracy and predictablity.


Horeshit. You propose a closed 'reservoir', which it is not.
The area the loop is in contact with is in turn in contact with the
entire planet, and heat is constantly being transferred in whichever
direction by conduction. The key to designing the loop is to make it
spread out over a large enough area such that the input of heat from
surrounding earth via conduction is sufficient to overcome the
'withdrawal' of heat by the system.

That would seem to be the case, but in reality what is going on underground
is alot more complex. I'm no geologist, but there's alot of different kinds
of ground, some is more conductive of heat than others. From what I
understand of GSHP, you the tube in the ground and then fill it with a
conductive type of granite rock or something. Don't remember it exactly,
but I do remember that it was made to be very conductive. So it's obvious
that some ground is more conductive than others.

You are not dealing with great delta T's underground, so the heat from the
loop will move slowly thru the rock (which itself is somewhat of an
insulator, or frost lines would be alot deeper. An area of ground heated up
from a ground source heatpump will dissipitate its heat over time. However,
the real question is how long will it take. Having a balance of heating and
cooling will of course help.

Now, rain also drips thru the earth when it rains, its the reason caves
have stalagtites and mites. So you'd have to assume that a good rain would
take some of that heat or cold away by making the ground around the GS Loop
more conductive.

Personally.. Depending on what the ground is like, a GSHP may or may not
work.
 
P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
That would seem to be the case, but in reality what is going on underground
is alot more complex. I'm no geologist, but there's alot of different kinds
of ground, some is more conductive of heat than others.

True, and not in conflict with anything I said.
From what I
understand of GSHP, you the tube in the ground and then fill it with a
conductive type of granite rock or something. Don't remember it exactly,
but I do remember that it was made to be very conductive. So it's obvious
that some ground is more conductive than others.

You use a fluid, which can vary with what type of GSHP you're
using. Sometimes just water ( in open loop ), sometimes a glycol mix
( in closed loop ).
You are not dealing with great delta T's underground, so the heat from the
loop will move slowly thru the rock (which itself is somewhat of an
insulator, or frost lines would be alot deeper. An area of ground heated up
from a ground source heatpump will dissipitate its heat over time. However,
the real question is how long will it take. Having a balance of heating and
cooling will of course help.

Again true, and not in any way conflicting with my statement.
Now, rain also drips thru the earth when it rains, its the reason caves
have stalagtites and mites.

As well as some very slow-moving older people. Like that one
in front of you on line at the checkout :)
So you'd have to assume that a good rain would
take some of that heat or cold away by making the ground around the GS Loop
more conductive.

Yes, *if* the loop is close enough to the surface to be
influenced. BTW, a pond makes an excellent source for a GSHP, for
obvious reasons.
Personally.. Depending on what the ground is like, a GSHP may or may not
work.

Of course.


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In alt.energy.homepower CM said:
The ground is not an infinite source of heat, it is a reservoir. If
you keep removing more heat than is added, the reservoir will
eventually run empty. A larger reservoir simply delays the inevitable.

I think you are overestimating the insulative properties of earth
by orders of magnitude. When you are talking about an overall duty
cycle of one year, and expressing concerns, well, I'm sorry, but I
don't buy it.

Can you show me some sort of engineering guide which explains the
concerns that you are attempting to describe?

Dave Hinz




--
 
In alt.energy.homepower CM said:
One of the first attempts to use a ground source heat pump was
installed in Michigan. It worked fine the first winter, but conked out
midway through the 2nd winter, and when they dug down to investigate,
they found Permafrost.

And so this example is notable as an early learning-process failure.
The ground is a thermal reservoir, not an infinite source, and the
input/output must be balanced. Using a larger loop area would mean
tapping a larger reservoir. If unbalanced, it would take longer to
stop functioning, but eventually it would stop functioning.

That is, if you could stop heat from leaking back into the cold
area, sure. Have you done the math on this one? I'm guessing
not.
Of course, if you dig really deep, you can tap a much larger thermal
reservoir of very hot rock that could provide heat for a few
centuries!

Yes, Iceland and probably other places are using this source;
not in dug holes, but in ready-made ones. I think that it's good
for more than just a few centuries, though. The earth is big; lots
of thermal mass.

Dave Hinz
 
R

Robert Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
And so this example is notable as an early learning-process failure.



That is, if you could stop heat from leaking back into the cold
area, sure. Have you done the math on this one? I'm guessing
not.


Yes, Iceland and probably other places are using this source;
not in dug holes, but in ready-made ones. I think that it's good
for more than just a few centuries, though. The earth is big; lots
of thermal mass.

The earth is big, but the heat will not instantly conduct across the earth.
If that were the case, I bet you'd find the average temperature of the earth
would be pretty hot. We got a nasty core that spew out that nasty red
stuff.

The ammount of the resovoir is like that of a lake. The lake doesn't soak
into the ground because its got the right rock at the bottom of it. It can
be assumed that there is insulating rock that keeps heat from conducting
accross the globe.

If you put your loop in a solid piece of rock, you will find it doesn't work

If you put your loop in what ammounts to a water well, you'll find it to be
incredibly efficient.

If you put your loop in oil, You'll put in an air cooled unit, so your
ground loops don't interfere with the oil well.
 
R

Robert Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is concrete thermally insulating? If the ground is very pourous, it has
trapped air, that air will be very insulating.

On another note, Spy Sattelites can tell how much heat is being produced by
airconditioning equipment, (chillers etc). If you used a ground source and
burried it under the parking lot, would a Sattelite be able to detect it?
 
P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
The ammount of the resovoir is like that of a lake. The lake doesn't soak
into the ground because its got the right rock at the bottom of it. It can
be assumed that there is insulating rock that keeps heat from conducting
accross the globe.

Not in the terms you assume. You're comparing performance of
a pipe with a depth measured in feet or tens of feet below surface, vs
some core hundreds of miles deep.

The strata are totally different in composition and
characteristics, and the difference in the thickness of the insulation
makes comparison meaningless. You're looking at molecular movement
and trying to predict rush hour traffic from it ( or the opposite,
actually ). While theoretical comparisons can be drawn they simply
don't relate.
If you put your loop in a solid piece of rock, you will find it doesn't work

Wrong. You'll find it depends on the size and conductivity of
the rock.
If you put your loop in oil, You'll put in an air cooled unit, so your
ground loops don't interfere with the oil well.

Bull.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
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P

pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is concrete thermally insulating? If the ground is very pourous, it has
trapped air, that air will be very insulating.

On another note, Spy Sattelites can tell how much heat is being produced by
airconditioning equipment, (chillers etc). If you used a ground source and
burried it under the parking lot, would a Sattelite be able to detect it?

We have pictures of the construction, and 2 people on your
staff report to us.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
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My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
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http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
 
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