Maker Pro
Maker Pro

ENERGY AUDIT

G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
depending > > on > > > what I am doing. The gen is used for: Chop saw,
Welder & TIG,
Grinders > > > (4), Lathe, Compound mitre saw, routers (2), Circular
saw, Bench
saw, > > > Jig saw, Belt sander, Orbital sander, Drill press, Washing
machine
and > > > Vacuume. All my small drills run off 12V. > If for example if
I am
the > > day. Go on have a guess.

I recall that you have at least two generators,
True

and have written about
various problems with them.

Not true.
I believe you mentioned a 10 kW one in the
last couple months.

Figment of your imagination.
It needs to be at least half of that if you do other
than hobby welding with it.

It would need to be more than 1/2 that.
Why do you keep mixing in tractors and
cement mixers

Because these are the things that are run on the 20 litres of fuel every
week.
rather than just saying the size, hp and hourly fuel
consumption?

Robin - ES - Cont 6.5kW - Max 8.5 kW. 7 litres fuel capacity. 1.75 L/hr
Do you have to put your boots on to go start it?

Do you work bare foot in the work shop?

I always work with my boots on.

As this gen is workshop it is never run for the house except for the
vac. your point is not a point at all.
Why are
you using one generator for shop tools and another for battery charging?
How many generators have you worn out/rebuilt during your off-grid
experience?

Because the battery charger I use does the job better and quicker than
an electric battery charger on the shop gen. With a lot less fuel.

Well lets see. Your's... Our other generator is a custom built 14 hp
OHV single cylinder Onan belt driving a scrap modified Delco car
alternator. Electric start with remote controls indoors.

Mine...5 HP Mitsubishi running a 50 Amp Bosch alt. run time 4 hours and
a bit per 4 litres. Seldom run this for more than3 hours. The 5 hp is
well oversized for the job. Not used much except during winter. Then
maybe once every couple of weeks depending on the weather.

Electric start and 14 HP with remote in the house for a gen that might
run an average of once every 2 months. You are a hopeless consumer.

Here, I'll lead by example... my AC generator is a Hobart 8kW
welder-generator. It's powered by a 16hp 2 cylinder opposed flat head
Onan with pressure lube and uses about 4 liters per hour fully loaded.
It's in the attached workshop, has exhaust routed outside, has electric
start and auto-idle. It weighs (hee hee hee) about 700 pounds and is on
wheels so that it can be rolled outside for jobs where the cables on the
other welders won't reach. I don't use it at all for home power anymore,
only for heavy welding or portable AC.

Our other generator is a custom built 14 hp OHV single cylinder Onan
belt driving a scrap modified Delco car alternator. Electric start with
remote controls indoors. Described in more detail here at the time I
built it. Photo from that post
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images/genny.jpg 70 Amps DC at about 2/3
full RPM and part throttle. About 2 hours per gallon. Unused for months
at a time, occasionally used for an hour here or there, and very
occasionally used two days in a row for two or three hours per day.

There... now your turn weasel.


Then you must work primarily with wood, 'cause you ain't doin' much by
hand in steel.

Now this statement is good. Metal working was never undertaken until the
advent of machinery. Wayne has spoken.

I do a fair bit with both these days.
But how is it that you claim to be a craftsman but aren't
willing to show us the work on your own setup?

Have you ever looked. The site I use for pictures has had over 4000 hits
since I started it. I still add pictures and charts there.
Please express my condolences to your teacher.

runs?

<sigh> Fine... about 125 feet to each of the three arrays, #4 to each.
About 165' to the wind generators, #4 as well for the 1000 W, I've
forgotten the size for the little one. #2 between the backup genny and
the batteries. #14 for most of the AC stuff, various sizes for the rest
depending on length and load. Main panel supplies shop, garage, laundry,
master bedroom and subpanel, which supplies the balance. Now pull a Ghio
and claim that I called the electrician for the info...

Did you?
Because you're a loudmouthed horse's ass fond of criticizing others and
claiming to be an expert. Which means you should be proud to provide
details and photos of the Mr.Craftsman home. No one expects a connection
by connection slideshow, just a few shots to give us some idea whether
it's a mishmash or a show piece.

Well the house is coming along just fine. Thank you for asking. We have
laid close to 100 tons of stone and morter. The whole house has been
built by just me and the wife. Mind you the heart attack did slow me
down a bit. My house has also featured in the Owner Builder Magazine.

Proud of it? Yes. And will show it off when completed. It is a real work
of art. Even if it is still under construction.

The house does not require AC and heating is with a contraflow masonary
heater inside 100 tons of thermal mass.

The house runs on 1.2 - 1.5 kWh a day. It was designed to do this and so
the system was designed to supply this with 5 days autonomy. The house
is mostly 12 Volt. All lighting is 12 V. In fact the only things that
require the inverter is the computer, printer and the occasional cake
mixer. All the lights are QH or led. Almost all lights are placed for
working none of the lights exceed 10 Watts.

The ELV wiring starts with a 16 sq mm run from one side of the house to
the other. then 8 sq mm from end to end in three places reducing to 3
and 2 sq mm for all other runs depending on needs. Needless to say there
is almost no voltage drop within the house wiring.

Inverter Selectronics SE12 - 600 Watts cont. - 1/2 hour 800 Watts and 5
seconds surge 1500 Watts. 90% efficient max.

Batteries 840 Ah - Six 2V cells. Feeds to control box 36 sq mm cable.2
metres. DC rated.

Solar panels X8 - 80 watt BP mounted on a single axis rack.Feeds to
control box 16 sqmm cable. 4 metres. DC rated.

Reg - Plasmatronics PL40 40A Digital with data logging and shunt + PLS
for total logging of in and out + battery charging in.

Water is pumped with a Flowjet 12V pump to header tank, push button
start on latching relay and shuts off on pressure switch. Circuit at:

<http://community.webshots.com/album/30870272VAADMEwbqw>

see Solar 2

George
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Figment of your imagination.

Oh of course, silly me. 8.5 is orders of magnitude less than 10. What
happened to the 8 mentioned here? http://tinyurl.com/t8y5 I seem to
remember a 9 as well......
It would need to be more than 1/2 that.

Oh my, another error on my part. I said "at least half of that".
Robin - ES - Cont 6.5kW - Max 8.5 kW. 7 litres fuel capacity. 1.75
L/hr

Why can't you post the hp and loaded fuel consumption like everyone
else? Is it OHV or L head? How many cylinders? Sheesh, getting basic
specs from you is like pulling teeth.
As this gen is workshop it is never run for the house except for the >
vac. your point is not a point at all.

Walking to the shop to start a generator for house loads like a vacuum
or a washing machine is not my idea of good design.
Electric start and 14 HP with remote in the house for a gen that might
run an average of once every 2 months. You are a hopeless consumer.

I take you've never heard of de-rating? As I said, it's a 14 hp engine
running at lowered RPM and part throttle. That
means it does not produce 14 hp, but will have a long and quiet life at
reduced output. Having controls indoors is something most people would
consider a good idea.
Now this statement is good. Metal working was never undertaken until
the > advent of machinery. Wayne has spoken.

If you're going to scoff at power tools then you should explain why you
use a welder. After all, rivets are still available and you could buck
them with your skull.
Have you ever looked. The site I use for pictures has had over 4000
hits > since I started it.

I just did. I don't see a single picture of your setup. Post a link if
you have one, or quit being a weasel and explain why you don't.
Proud of it? Yes. And will show it off when completed. It is a real
work > of art. Even if it is still under construction.

Isn't the power system finished already? Then why not show that part? If
the building is a "work of art" and has already been featured in a
magazine, then why not show it off here as well?
The house runs on 1.2 - 1.5 kWh a day. It was designed to do this and
so > the system was designed to supply this with 5 days autonomy.

No, it does not run on 1.5 kWh per day. Even though the home is sparely
equipped, it still requires regular propane delivery, routine generator
running, and substantial wood chopping. Yet so far there's been no
mention of a chainsaw or log splitter. Yeah yeah I know, you can produce
firewood using nothing more than a handsaw, a splitting maul, and a
bottle of nitroglycerin tablets.
Inverter Selectronics SE12 - 600 Watts cont. - 1/2 hour 800 Watts and
5 > seconds surge 1500 Watts. 90% efficient max.

Many people would find that a tad undersized..... for camping. Using an
inverter that small for an entire house means resorting to a generator
for even a single load like a vacuum or clothes washer. Seems familiar
somehow.... I'm picturing an exasperated Eddie Albert explaining the
power system to Eva Gabor.... "How many times do I have to tell you, you
can't plug in a 3 and a 4 at the same time".
Water is pumped with a Flowjet 12V pump to header tank, push button >
start on latching relay and shuts off on pressure switch. Circuit at: >

Ah yes, the famous 100% wiring. You might want to patent that puppy
before someone makes off with the sophisticated control logic. But you
neglected to mention how much pressure this setup produces at the
faucets.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
aIn article <[email protected]>,
wmbjk said:
Oh of course, silly me. 8.5 is orders of magnitude less than 10. What
happened to the 8 mentioned here? http://tinyurl.com/t8y5 I seem to
remember a 9 as well......

Still own the 8, never owned a 9. You can get help with reading problems.

As far as the bogged and stricken the problems were none of my doing.
Changed to mitsubishi and the gen runs a treat.
Oh my, another error on my part. I said "at least half of that".

Yes. 1/2 of 10 is five and even a 140 A welder will flog a 5 kva gen to
death in a short time.
L/hr

Why can't you post the hp and loaded fuel consumption like everyone

Fuel consumption looks like 1.75 L/Hr. Again you show that you can not
do the simple sums needed to design a system.
else? Is it OHV or L head? How many cylinders? Sheesh, getting basic
specs from you is like pulling teeth.

Who cares what sort of valve configuration it has. It produces - Cont
6.5kW - Max 8.5 kW. This is said:
vac. your point is not a point at all.

Walking to the shop to start a generator for house loads like a vacuum
or a washing machine is not my idea of good design.

Well with stone and brick floors and the laundry in the workshop I guess
you will have to defend your view better than that.
I take you've never heard of de-rating? As I said, it's a 14 hp engine
running at lowered RPM and part throttle. That
means it does not produce 14 hp, but will have a long and quiet life at
reduced output. Having controls indoors is something most people would
consider a good idea.

Oh yes let's all derate a 14HP motor to 5HP because Wayne did. Now tell
the truth, you bought a motor three time larger than you needed because
it was the smallest you could get with elecrtric start and it is bigger
than you neighbours.
the > advent of machinery. Wayne has spoken.

If you're going to scoff at power tools then you should explain why you
use a welder. After all, rivets are still available and you could buck
them with your skull.

Scoff at power tools? NEVER. Scoff at Wayne who can't drive a screw
without a motor? Hell yes.
hits > since I started it.

I just did. I don't see a single picture of your setup. Post a link if
you have one, or quit being a weasel and explain why you don't.

Guess you did not look hard enough. Oh sorry I forgot you have trouble
reading.
work > of art. Even if it is still under construction.

Isn't the power system finished already? Then why not show that part? If
the building is a "work of art" and has already been featured in a
magazine, then why not show it off here as well?

Why don't you buy the mag. 1/2 The power system is only roughed in until
the battery inclosure is built. You should have looked at the other
albums. Quite a good photo of my control box and other work I have done.
The mag featured construction methods and the use of moulds.
so > the system was designed to supply this with 5 days autonomy.

No, it does not run on 1.5 kWh per day. Even though the home is sparely
equipped, it still requires regular propane delivery,

Propane yes. But then that was all covered in my energy audit for fuels.
routine generator
running,
NO.

and substantial wood chopping. Yet so far there's been no
mention of a chainsaw or log splitter.

So. The chainsaw runs on part of the 20L of fuel mentioned before.

The log splitter runs on a bowl of cereal.
Yeah yeah I know, you can produce
firewood using nothing more than a handsaw, a splitting maul,

Done it that way too.
and a
bottle of nitroglycerin tablets.

Haven't used them for years. Did have a bypass though. Your grasp of
medicine is as poor as your grasp of your system.
5 > seconds surge 1500 Watts. 90% efficient max.

Many people would find that a tad undersized.....

Why. Because you need the energy of a small town just to wipe your ass.
My well designed and built 600 Watt inverter runs what I need it to run.
Why should I use a larger one.
for camping. Using an
inverter that small for an entire house means resorting to a generator
for even a single load like a vacuum or clothes washer.

Why. The vac is only used occasionally. The laundry is in the W/S. Just
how lazy are you?
Seems familiar
somehow.... I'm picturing an exasperated Eddie Albert explaining the
power system to Eva Gabor.... "How many times do I have to tell you, you
can't plug in a 3 and a 4 at the same time".

If you are still watching reruns of that you must be a real couch
potato. You need to get out more.
start on latching relay and shuts off on pressure switch. Circuit at: >

Ah yes, the famous 100% wiring. You might want to patent that puppy
before someone makes off with the sophisticated control logic.

What is so great about a latching relay. The pump runs - the pump shuts
off. I dont think it needs to do much more than that.
But you
neglected to mention how much pressure this setup produces at the
faucets.

Never tested with a guage. If I get a good hot shower from 30ft head
then I can't complain.

George
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Still own the 8, never owned a 9.

I think you're wearing out generators.
Fuel consumption looks like 1.75 L/Hr.

Are you saying you get 8.5 kW out of 1.75 liters per hour?
Who cares what sort of valve configuration it has.

Readers would be interested in the engine configuration in order to help
judge just how much spin you've put on that fuel burn, which in turn
reflects how much spin you've put on the run time. I think you're being
cagey about the hp and configuration because you know you'll be called
on it.
Well with stone and brick floors and the laundry in the workshop I guess
you will have to defend your view better than that.

I thought you were walking out to the shop to start the generator in
order to do laundry. Turns out you're walking out to a shop with a brick
floor to start the generator in order to do laundry. What was I
thinking?
Oh yes let's all derate a 14HP motor to 5HP because Wayne did. Now tell
the truth, you bought a motor three time larger than you needed because
it was the smallest you could get with elecrtric start and it is bigger
than you neighbours.

I wouldn't advise anyone to do the same thing unless they were able to
get a new, surplus, quality engine for 4 and change like I did. If they
can, and if they want to exchange some loss of efficiency for decreased
noise and increased longevity then ..... BTW, I don't have neighbors.
Scoff at power tools? NEVER. Scoff at Wayne who can't drive a screw
without a motor? Hell yes.

George, I can drive a screw with the Leatherman I always carry in my
pocket. But my goal was to have a setup that would power a well-equipped
workshop so that I wouldn't wear out that Leatherman, and could finish
projects in my lifetime. Your idea is to defend your minimalist approach
by insulting anyone who doesn't want to do it your way. A unique
self-promotion strategy.
Why don't you buy the mag. 1/2 The power system is only roughed in until
the battery inclosure is built. You should have looked at the other
albums. Quite a good photo of my control box and other work I have done.
The mag featured construction methods and the use of moulds.

I did see that photo and it looks nice. I didn't catch the caption which
identifies it as part of your system. Are there any others? Perhaps the
easiest thing for you to do here is post the links to *every* photo of
your system, or if that's the only one just say so.
Lots of people post photos of the most basic systems without any fear of
being ridiculed. But then those people didn't insult so many of the
other posters beforehand. With your history and understanding nature,
one of those you've bashed is liable to make fun of your setup. And if
that were to happen, even you'd have to admit that you had it coming.
Why. Because you need the energy of a small town just to wipe your ass.
My well designed and built 600 Watt inverter runs what I need it to run.
Why should I use a larger one.

You shouldn't, and I never said you should. If you prefer to start a
generator to run a jigsaw, then that's your business. If you want to
call that good design, then be my guest. But I believe that most people
would prefer a system designed so that the generator was only required
for the very largest loads. Some of us even prefer a system that can
power all the loads.
Why. The vac is only used occasionally. The laundry is in the W/S. Just
how lazy are you?

On grid or off, tract home or custom, most people prefer to have their
laundry facilities close at hand. Why make it any farther away than it
needs to be? Why call anyone who makes it close-by lazy?
What is so great about a latching relay. The pump runs - the pump shuts
off. I dont think it needs to do much more than that.

There *isn't* anything great about it. And most people *would* expect
more than that, like fully automatic operation since that's so easy to
do.
Never tested with a guage. If I get a good hot shower from 30ft head
then I can't complain.

You don't need a gauge. If the water is hot, then that hasn't anything
to do with the head. If it's 30 feet of head, then barring crappy
plumbing the pressure is about 13 psi at the faucet. In my experience
most people start complaining when the pressure drops to 20. Something
tells me you'll have some kind words for them in your next post....

Wayne
 
M

mark Ransley

Jan 1, 1970
0
So Wayne how did you 'Derate" your generator rpm and keep 60hz 120v
, impossible , no.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
So Wayne how did you 'Derate" your generator rpm and keep 60hz 120v
, impossible , no.

The motor is belt driving a car alternator (24V nominal DC output), so
RPM can be whatever I want. Which is one of the reasons I built the
thing instead of just plumbing 120 into the inverter-chargers as I had
previously. At 70 Amps, even at the reduced revs it only drops a little
when the field is turned on. It isn't nearly as quiet as as one of those
Honda EU2000s, but it's a lot quieter than most any standard generator.
The engine has pressure lube, a balance shaft, and is lightly loaded.
I'm really happy with the way it turned out. Field control is by a
crummy rheostat, I need to do something about that some day. A timer
would be nice too.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
So Wayne how did you 'Derate" your generator rpm and keep 60hz 120v
, impossible , no.

Markie you do not have the wit or knowledge to make comment. Read the
description of this gen again. You will find that it is a DC gen for
battery charging.

George
 
M

mark Ransley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gee george from an ass like you that says we dont Need a meter for
an audit . You are not accurate in sizing, sales, or business
without one. You have been clueless, here is a quarter, go buy one.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
The motor is belt driving a car alternator (24V nominal DC output), so
RPM can be whatever I want. Which is one of the reasons I built the
thing instead of just plumbing 120 into the inverter-chargers as I had
previously. At 70 Amps, even at the reduced revs it only drops a little
when the field is turned on. It isn't nearly as quiet as as one of those
Honda EU2000s, but it's a lot quieter than most any standard generator.
The engine has pressure lube, a balance shaft, and is lightly loaded.
I'm really happy with the way it turned out. Field control is by a
crummy rheostat, I need to do something about that some day. A timer
would be nice too.

Wayne

Saw a nice adjustable reg from Ingrams(?) Used it with a 50A alt on a
3.5 HP Honda.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gee george from an ass like you that says we dont Need a meter for
an audit . You are not accurate in sizing, sales, or business
without one. You have been clueless, here is a quarter, go buy one.

As I said no wit. No knowledge.

And should add. No English.
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
aIn article <[email protected]>,
wmbjk said:
I think you're wearing out generators.

You would be wrong. I have been known to test motors for use with small
ELV gen sets. Take some good advice and leave B&S Vanguard motors alone.

I make such sets for people on order. Yanmar makes a range of small HP
Electric start Diesels that look promising.
Are you saying you get 8.5 kW out of 1.75 liters per hour?

No. I'm saying that if I fill the tank then the gen runs for 4 hours.
Readers would be interested in the engine configuration in order to help
judge just how much spin you've put on that fuel burn, which in turn
reflects how much spin you've put on the run time. I think you're being
cagey about the hp and configuration because you know you'll be called
on it.

There is no spin. Average 20 Litres per week. Can you read? I posted the
information. It said: Robin - ES - Cont 6.5kW - Max 8.5 kW. 7 litres
fuel capacity. 1.75 L/hr. This is the rating for the motor. ISU.
I thought you were walking out to the shop to start the generator in
order to do laundry.

Thats right. Laundry is in the workshop.
Turns out you're walking out to a shop with a brick
floor to start the generator in order to do laundry. What was I
thinking?

You're not thinking.
I wouldn't advise anyone to do the same thing unless they were able to
get a new, surplus, quality engine for 4

Are you saying you paid 4 grand or 4 hundred or $4.
and change like I did. If they
can, and if they want to exchange some loss of efficiency for decreased
noise and increased longevity then ..... BTW, I don't have neighbors.

To thirds is a lot of derating.
George, I can drive a screw with the Leatherman

You are also a name dropper. The Leatherman, what a wank, nothing more
than a bit of SS gee wizzery that a wanna be would flash around. theres
better steel in the springs on my truck. You want a knife? Go back to
the 60's and get a Buck.
I always carry in my
pocket. But my goal was to have a setup that would power a well-equipped
workshop so that I wouldn't wear out that Leatherman, and could finish
projects in my lifetime. Your idea is to defend your minimalist approach
by insulting anyone who doesn't want to do it your way. A unique
self-promotion strategy.

I always tell people that my lifestyle will not suit everybody.
I did see that photo and it looks nice. I didn't catch the caption which
identifies it as part of your system.

That was not the point of the photo. The point is that you do not need
an agricultural installation.
Are there any others? Perhaps the
easiest thing for you to do here is post the links to *every* photo of
your system, or if that's the only one just say so.

Not the only one. When all is done I will probably do a web sit of the
building process in chronological order.
Lots of people post photos of the most basic systems without any fear of
being ridiculed. But then those people didn't insult so many of the
other posters beforehand. With your history and understanding nature,
one of those you've bashed is liable to make fun of your setup. And if
that were to happen, even you'd have to admit that you had it coming.

Yeah. Ridicule only works if it can be supported. But what matters is
whether they can prove the design is bad or that the numbers don't add
up. That is your let down. You can not defend the numbers or tell us
what your appliances use. Your site claims things like 'Days of
Autonomy' that do not make sense. I really do not have anything against
your system. Your site OTOH is full of conflicting information,
misinformation and nonsense. This leads one to the conclusion that you
did not design the system. I sugguest that you add the information and
make sure that it makes sense. Your system really could be used to help
people to understand design. The trouble is that the numbers are not
there. A proper energy audit would go along ways towards making sense of
your system. Then a rundown of the equipment and what it does. Days of
autonomy is the number of days the system will support your usual daily
load, NOT a reduced load to get by.
You shouldn't, and I never said you should. If you prefer to start a
generator to run a jigsaw, then that's your business. If you want to
call that good design, then be my guest. But I believe that most people
would prefer a system designed so that the generator was only required
for the very largest loads. Some of us even prefer a system that can
power all the loads.

Actually most people want to get it as heap as possible. When it comes
down to the doing part it seems that most people will settle for
affordable. The average installation in this country runs to around a 3
kWh a day load.

When it comes to tools the tool I use most in all jobs seems to be a
drill. As I have five of them and they all plug into my 12V power.

Day or night. Even after 4 days of low input.
On grid or off, tract home or custom, most people prefer to have their
laundry facilities close at hand. Why make it any farther away than it
needs to be?

It's not.

Why call anyone who makes it close-by lazy?

Actually I asked: Just how lazy are you?
There *isn't* anything great about it. And most people *would* expect
more than that, like fully automatic operation since that's so easy to
do.

Yes it is easy. My reg would do it and a dozen other things as well.
But going from the BR to any where else in the house I walk past the
control box, hit the start button as I pass and then when the tank is
full the pump stops.

OTOH I have seen an automatic system pump 2000 gals of water through a
house just because a pipe broke and the owner was away.

I have even refused to set up a gen set on automatic because the gen was
chinese and had a history of break downs in the two months the guy owned
it.

God gave you the best control gear right there between your ears. It is
free. It is a sad thing that the best thing you can find to use it for
is watching reruns of green acres. That is lazy.
You don't need a gauge. If the water is hot, then that hasn't anything
to do with the head. If it's 30 feet of head, then barring crappy
plumbing the pressure is about 13 psi at the faucet. In my experience
most people start complaining when the pressure drops to 20. Something
tells me you'll have some kind words for them in your next post....

If you can get it great. I have never found pressure to be a problem.
Shower roses can be had that work best with lower pressures and then
there is the problem of drought here. Water consevation is a high
priority here and people are urged to put in flow restrictors in taps
and showers to reduce the use of water.

George
 
A

Arnold Walker

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
Saw a nice adjustable reg from Ingrams(?) Used it with a 50A alt on a
3.5 HP Honda.
Looking around marinas or mobile welding generator manufacturers.And you
will find not only adj. regulators,
but multi-alternator and thermo control (hot batteries don't charge very
well)reg as well.The welding guys out of Tennessee comes to mind at Zena
800amp for up to 22 volts DC continuous.And up to three
altenators/generators can be controled by the reg..
Use them on some of my small steam plants......sometimes with a three-phrase
rotatary invertor for three phrase applications
And they are not as stiff a price as Stinger or some of the other guys out
there .....
Got my from Northern Equipment..........
You can interface that three-phrase with a Woodard Governor and power
manager as well......yes they do have controls for backup generator size
plants as well.
Not just Meg/Gigwatt like some folks might think.If you want to
net-meter,that stuff instead of charging batteries....

At the same time,that setup don't sound bad for a small application with
short runs Many off shore boats actually are rigged like your little
Honda,if they have a stand alone generator.For the same reason lower speed
and easier freg. control. .
 
A

Arnold Walker

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
As I said no wit. No knowledge.

And should add. No English
Just thought of something else on your DC power .....if you need help paying
for this stuff.
Most states do not regulate below One Megawatt for generator license or
distribution of power.
So your sawmill,chicken farm or whatever can literally channel surplus power
out to a paying neighbor.
Granted most of the rigs mentioned in this thread can't even light the
excitors on a megawatt generator but....
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
There is no spin. Average 20 Litres per week. Can you read?

You're mixing that in with tractor and other consumption. When I guessed
that the generator engine hp might be 20, you tried to make it sound
like I was way off. Now you don't want to admit that I was in the
ballpark with that estimate. You're not fooling anyone, so give us the
engine hp and fully-loaded fuel consumption weasel.
You're not thinking.

I'm thinking that carrying laundry out to the workshop (how far away it
is we have yet to drag out of you), and having to start the generator to
wash that laundry, is not my idea of a custom home.
Are you saying you paid 4 grand or 4 hundred or $4.

Are *you* saying that you know somewhere to get the engine I described
for either $4 or $4000? Post a link, otherwise admit that it's kinda'
obvious that I meant four-hundred and change.
To thirds is a lot of derating

What a strange comment coming from someone whose habit is to run an 8.5
kW generator at partial load, and start it for even small power tools.
You are also a name dropper. The Leatherman, what a wank, nothing more
than a bit of SS gee wizzery that a wanna be would flash around. theres
better steel in the springs on my truck. You want a knife? Go back to
the 60's and get a Buck.

Ah, brilliant diversion, criticizing my choice of pocket tools and
accusing me of name dropping for mentioning the make. We'll overlook
your own mention of a brand name in your response you silly person you.
I always tell people that my lifestyle will not suit everybody.

There are many people interested in off-grid living at your budget
level. But few who'd intentionally make it any more difficult than it
needs to be.
Not the only one. When all is done I will probably do a web sit of the
building process in chronological order.

You say that there are other photos, but won't say how many or post the
links. You say that you're willing to eventually show pictures of the
project even when it was incomplete, just not at this moment. Yet you
have the time to waste countless hours droning on about *someone else's*
system and website. It's obvious that you aren't putting up diddly about
your own setup because you're afraid of getting the kind of criticizm
that you're so fond of dolling out. Classic Weasel George.
Yeah. Ridicule only works if it can be supported. But what matters is
whether they can prove the design is bad or that the numbers don't add
up. That is your let down. You can not defend the numbers or tell us
what your appliances use. Your site claims things like 'Days of
Autonomy' that do not make sense. I really do not have anything against
your system. Your site OTOH is full of conflicting information,
misinformation and nonsense. This leads one to the conclusion that you
did not design the system. I sugguest that you add the information and
make sure that it makes sense. Your system really could be used to help
people to understand design. The trouble is that the numbers are not
there. A proper energy audit would go along ways towards making sense of
your system. Then a rundown of the equipment and what it does. Days of
autonomy is the number of days the system will support your usual daily
load, NOT a reduced load to get by.

So The Blunder From Down Under spends his evenings trying to convince
everyone that some desert rat didn't design or build his own system.
Strangly though the Blunder seems to accept that the same desert rat
built a high-performance homebuilt aircraft, a task about 100 times more
difficult than a home power system. Even odder, the desert rat has gone
to the trouble to build, er... commission a fully equipped workshop in
order to further his ruse. Yeah, I can see how that scenario would make
sense to someone hoping to improve his professional reputation by
posting nonsense daily in a public forum.
Actually most people want to get it as heap as possible. When it comes
down to the doing part it seems that most people will settle for
affordable.

A friend picked up a Trace DR1512 inverter-charger for about 5 and
change (hint, not $5k, and not $5). That's an example of a capable
inverter being used in a low-cost system. In contrast, planning to use a
generator for small power tools in a house-sized system is an example of
making a weird choice.
When it comes to tools the tool I use most in all jobs seems to be a
drill. As I have five of them and they all plug into my 12V power.

Cordless tools are great, and I have a bunch of them (this charade is
getting expensive). But a proper workshop has corded tools as well, and
even a low-cost home power setup can run them. Or so my "designer" says
.....
Actually I asked: Just how lazy are you?

Oh I see, you were just *asking*. OK then, I was just *asking* when I
said that you were a pig-headed blowhard.
OTOH I have seen an automatic system pump 2000 gals of water through a
house just because a pipe broke and the owner was away.

So that's your explanation for having a manual-start button on the tank
filler? Sounds like a reason for putting a valve between the tank and
the house, and turning that valve off when not at home. Which is exactly
what we do, so now you're gonna' have to write a detailed post about how
that's a bad idea, shows that I don't trust my own, oops... somebody
else's plumbing, etc etc. I suggest you stay up verrrrry late and put
lots of time into your response.
God gave you the best control gear right there between your ears. It is
free. It is a sad thing that the best thing you can find to use it for
is watching reruns of green acres. That is lazy.

So we both know what Green Acres is, but because I teased you about
living it, you repeatedly accuse me of watching it. And you combine this
glorious leap of logic with a comment about the "control gear between
your ears". Thank "God" for Usenet, home of unlimited free irony.
If you can get it great. I have never found pressure to be a problem.
Shower roses can be had that work best with lower pressures and then
there is the problem of drought here. Water consevation is a high
priority here and people are urged to put in flow restrictors in taps
and showers to reduce the use of water.

Water conservation and water pressure are two different things, and good
water pressure is entirely compatable with low water use. If I owned a
custom home on or off-grid with 13 PSI at the faucets I wouldn't go on
Usenet blabbering about my "design" skills, or accusing others of not
knowing what they're doing.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
vIn article <[email protected]>,
wmbjk said:
You're mixing that in with tractor and other consumption. When I guessed
that the generator engine hp might be 20, you tried to make it sound
like I was way off.

Not true. Only that your were wrong.
Now you don't want to admit that I was in the
ballpark with that estimate. You're not fooling anyone, so give us the
engine hp and fully-loaded fuel consumption weasel.

I did. your failure to understand IS units is your problem. And 20
litres is 20 litres.
I'm thinking that carrying laundry out to the workshop (how far away it
is we have yet to drag out of you), and having to start the generator to
wash that laundry, is not my idea of a custom home.
So.

Are *you* saying that you know somewhere to get the engine I described
for either $4 or $4000? Post a link, otherwise admit that it's kinda'
obvious that I meant four-hundred and change.

Kinda obvious you did not specify whether the cost was for just the
motor or the whole gen set completed.
What a strange comment coming from someone whose habit is to run an 8.5
kW generator at partial load, and start it for even small power tools.

Why strange? The gen is the size needed to run the welder.

The inverter is sized to run the load required. At its best efficiency>
Ah, brilliant diversion, criticizing my choice of pocket tools and
accusing me of name dropping for mentioning the make. We'll overlook
your own mention of a brand name in your response you silly person you.

Yeah your choice of pocket tools show only that you are a sucker for
winkie wank tools.

A good company. A good knife. But maby you would prefer a Victornox.
Still good steel and you can buy one today.
There are many people interested in off-grid living at your budget
level. But few who'd intentionally make it any more difficult than it
needs to be.

What's difficult about it?
You say that there are other photos, but won't say how many or post the
links. You say that you're willing to eventually show pictures of the
project even when it was incomplete, just not at this moment. Yet you
have the time to waste countless hours droning on about *someone else's*
system and website. It's obvious that you aren't putting up diddly about
your own setup because you're afraid of getting the kind of criticizm
that you're so fond of dolling out. Classic Weasel George.

Well I only use the one site for pics and there is only so much I can
put there for free. As I do not have a web site I can not post there.
So The Blunder From Down Under spends his evenings trying to convince
everyone that some desert rat didn't design or build his own system.

Well one can only go by what is on your site. And it sure does not look
as if you know what is going on. Even after weeks of trying to make the
numbers seem real you still do not seem to know the load that would give
7 days autonomy or for that matter what Days Of Autonomy means.
Strangly though the Blunder seems to accept that the same desert rat
built a high-performance homebuilt aircraft, a task about 100 times more
difficult than a home power system.

A kit I believe. True? Or did you design it as well.
Even odder, the desert rat has gone
to the trouble to build, er... commission a fully equipped workshop in
order to further his ruse. Yeah, I can see how that scenario would make
sense to someone hoping to improve his professional reputation by
posting nonsense daily in a public forum.

If you can not show numbers that add up then it is hard to believe that
you know how.
A friend picked up a Trace DR1512 inverter-charger for about 5 and
change (hint, not $5k, and not $5). That's an example of a capable
inverter being used in a low-cost system. In contrast, planning to use a
generator for small power tools in a house-sized system is an example of
making a weird choice.

Is it? Seems to run the welder well enough
Cordless tools are great, and I have a bunch of them (this charade is
getting expensive). But a proper workshop has corded tools as well, and
even a low-cost home power setup can run them. Or so my "designer" says

Did I say anything about cordless?
....


Oh I see, you were just *asking*. OK then, I was just *asking* when I
said that you were a pig-headed blowhard.

Good for you.
So that's your explanation for having a manual-start button on the tank
filler? Sounds like a reason for putting a valve between the tank and
the house, and turning that valve off when not at home. Which is exactly
what we do, so now you're gonna' have to write a detailed post about how
that's a bad idea, shows that I don't trust my own, oops... somebody
else's plumbing, etc etc. I suggest you stay up verrrrry late and put
lots of time into your response.

Well you know Wayne there is not that much to it. Pump does not start
unless I turn it on. Water is pumped to the top of tank, so if line
leaks for whatever reason it can not drain tank. Feed side has solanoid
valve which opens on pump start.
So we both know what Green Acres is, but because I teased you about
living it, you repeatedly accuse me of watching it. And you combine this
glorious leap of logic with a comment about the "control gear between
your ears". Thank "God" for Usenet, home of unlimited free irony.

Anyone who can qoute from green acres does not get out enough.
Water conservation and water pressure are two different things, and good
water pressure is entirely compatable with low water use. If I owned a
custom home on or off-grid with 13 PSI at the faucets I wouldn't go on
Usenet blabbering about my "design" skills, or accusing others of not
knowing what they're doing.

More consumer wankery. Mine is bigger than yours. Bla bla bla. So what?

I get a hot shower every day and can reply to your drivel at any time
while you seem to have to wait for enough sun to post.

But the real teller is the fact that you still have not been able to
show that your numbers make sense. In fact you have not been able to
show that my systems numbers don't. For all your words and bluster you
still have added nothing that shows you know what you are doing.

OK you built a KIT airplane. Did you also build a kit energy system?
Perhaps a Kit house?

Your system is interesting. People could learn a lot about design from
it. Pity you can't provide the information.

George
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kinda obvious you did not specify whether the cost was for just the
motor or the whole gen set completed.

Well let's see... I said that I used a brand new engine and gave the
specs and price. And I said that I used a scrap alternator, but did not
give the price for that. OK you got me, it was $5, and that sure makes a
big difference in the overall cost. I also said that I described the
thing in detail previously..... if you'd looked that up I may have given
the price of the sheaves and belt which was $40 or more IIRC. Then
there's the steel (had it in stock, but would guess $20 worth), choke
cable, misc. wiring, conduit, switches, rheostat, enclosure materials,
fuel tank, etc. I'd put the installed cost at perhaps $800 plus a few
days of my oops.... my "consultant's" time.
Why strange? The gen is the size needed to run the welder.

It was one of your typical blunders to criticize someone who's using a
low rev engine that's never loaded below 2000W, for inefficiency when
you're using an 8.5 kW generator to run small power tools. Every load
you're running off that generator *except* the welder would be better
run off something like a Honda EU model.
The inverter is sized to run the load required. At its best
efficiency>

I don't get why you go on so about efficiency, even to the ludicrous
degree of multiple decimal places, yet make basic decisions that most
people would find undesirable.
Yeah your choice of pocket tools show only that you are a sucker for
winkie wank tools.

You're the guy who keeps mentioning his five 12V drills. I'm the guy
with the workshop you'd like for Christmas, but won't get because Santa
knows you're a pigheaded blowhard. But you can write a nice post about
the Mjs in your lump of coal.
Well I only use the one site for pics and there is only so much I can
put there for free. As I do not have a web site I can not post there.

LOL. You can get commercial web space for $30 a year. Another $10 for
the
domain registration. If your consultant business can't afford that.....
Here, let me help you. http://2globalmart.com/, and
http://www.godaddy.com/ It'll take a couple days for the domain name
(tbfdu.com has a nice ring) to propagate, which is plenty of time for
you to get the pictures loaded. Building a proper web site would be a
much more productive use of your time than bashing someone else's day
after day. Now put your $40 where your ignorant yap is.
Well one can only go by what is on your site. And it sure does not look
as if you know what is going on. Even after weeks of trying to make the
numbers seem real you still do not seem to know the load that would give
7 days autonomy or for that matter what Days Of Autonomy means.

George, you're the only person who claims that the site makes it look
like I don't know what's going on. That's because you're the only person
trying to spin the info for your own self-destructive purpose.
A kit I believe. True? Or did you design it as well.

Yes, it's a kit. The only thing I had to do was mix 100 pounds of glass
cloth with 15 gallons of resin, scrap another aircraft to salvage its
engine, prop, instruments etc., rebuild all that stuff, convert the
engine to fuel injection, and wire everything together. That only took
some 4000 hours labor, none of which could possibly be more difficult
than wiring up oops, I mean design the connection of a small inverter
to some batteries eh George?
Is it? Seems to run the welder well enough

Good old Ghiologic. The welder would run off a 40 kW genset just as
well. Would you call starting one of those when you need to use a jigsaw
good design?
Did I say anything about cordless?

I see... I wondered if that inverter of yours would smoke a drill
charger. So you have all the gutlessness of cordless tools, but with the
added inconvenience of a cord. Fascinating.
Well you know Wayne there is not that much to it. Pump does not start
unless I turn it on. Water is pumped to the top of tank, so if line
leaks for whatever reason it can not drain tank. Feed side has solanoid
valve which opens on pump start.

????? Hey, Mr. consultant, what about the other side, the one I was
talking about, the one that goes to the house?
More consumer wankery. Mine is bigger than yours. Bla bla bla. So
what?

Making stuff work well, rather than just good enough, is what
consultants are supposed to be about. Claiming that every attempt at
improvement is about "consumer wankery" is what weasels are all about.
I get a hot shower every day and can reply to your drivel at any time
while you seem to have to wait for enough sun to post.

That is pathetically weak. Your trademark.

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not good enough.

It is perfectly clear that YOU can not do the numbers.

Let us know when you can.

George
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not good enough.

It is perfectly clear that YOU can not do the numbers.

Let us know when you can.

What, no new preposterous claims today? You need some fresh material.

I take it you're not going to explain why you won't spend 40 bucks to
set up a website? Damn, I was looking forward to reading your excuses.
Guess I'll have to help. Here ya' go -


Consultant/Author's top ten reasons for not buying $40 web space

1. Sign on lawn is cheaper and more effective.

2. Still chipping out monitor after horrific cement-mixing accident.

3. Publication might upset delicate spreadsheet-royalty negotiations
with MIT.

4. Waiting for site-authoring software prices to get lower.

5. Kangaroo ate my phone line.

6. Current priority is designing motorized sidewalk to workshop.

7. Site would require too many kWhrs of power.

8. Need a way to grind off generator's engine data plate first.

9. Won't do anything Wayne recommends until hell freezes over.

10. Having a web site is against my humble nature.


Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
What, no new preposterous claims today? You need some fresh material.

I take it you're not going to explain why you won't spend 40 bucks to
set up a website? Damn, I was looking forward to reading your excuses.
Guess I'll have to help. Here ya' go -


Consultant/Author's top ten reasons for not buying $40 web space

1. Sign on lawn is cheaper and more effective.

Nope. Don't have one. No lawn either.
2. Still chipping out monitor after horrific cement-mixing accident.

Safe work practices prevent this.
3. Publication might upset delicate spreadsheet-royalty negotiations
with MIT.

Don't think MIT cares.
4. Waiting for site-authoring software prices to get lower.

What? Lower than free.
5. Kangaroo ate my phone line.

Kangaroos are herbivores.
6. Current priority is designing motorized sidewalk to workshop.

Leave that to you. I'm not that lazy.
7. Site would require too many kWhrs of power.

Wouldn't think so.
8. Need a way to grind off generator's engine data plate first.
Why?

9. Won't do anything Wayne recommends until hell freezes over.

Why? Are your work practices that bad?
10. Having a web site is against my humble nature.

Who told you I'm humble?


Well Wayne, you still can not do the numbers to show that you know what
you are doing. You can not show that my numbers are wrong.

Show us the numbers. If you can't, then shut up.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
George Ghio said:
Wouldn't think so.

The TBFDU strikes again! You might as well get that "kick me" sign
tattooed on. See if you can get a sense of humor transplant while you're
at it.
Well Wayne, you still can not do the numbers to show that you know what
you are doing. You can not show that my numbers are wrong.

Show us the numbers. If you can't, then shut up.

Oh yeah, I'm sure to shut up after how many? dozens of your outrageous
accusations. If your plan is to keep writing until I shut up, then my
advice is for you to design and install a caffeine IV. You're my pet
project now, so get used to it.

Wayne
 
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