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EMC testing, C Tick, CISPR22 radiated emissions

Discussion in 'Hobby Electronics' started by Moonshadow, Jun 18, 2008.

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  1. Moonshadow

    Moonshadow Guest

    Has anyone found and used a test house for the above (or AU-accepted
    overseas standards) which doesn't charge like the proverbial wounded
    bull? Overseas would be OK - China?
     
  2. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    Forgotten the C Tick details exactly. Do you NEED a test house ? You can
    self-certify for CE for example. Just employ a tame consultant who has
    or can borrow the kit.

    Also, here in the UK, groups of smaller manufacturers get togethere to
    buy their own, sharing the costs. Ask an industry association.

    You don't NEED shielded / anechoic rooms either etc if you can find a
    decent open field site.

    Graham
     
  3. Problem with overseas labs is that if your product fails - it's costly in
    terms of freight and time to send another modified unit for test. Where as
    it's quicker to run down to the lab and perhaps tweak the product.

    Also if it fails how will you know which part of the circuit is the cause?

    Joe
     
  4. Guest

    If you have a spec-an and lisn, do it yourself and do your own report.
    ACA do not require a certified lab as far as I can remember (an ACA
    uditer told me that), the test houses will try and tell you otherwise.
    The report must have traceable technical content though, ie calibrated
    instruments. The ACA is just as fussy as Germany and more
    beaurocratic. I have been through 3 EMC audits here in Melbourne.

    I think $2000 per day is the current approx going rate. Most devices
    fail their first attempt, and you may need to re-schedule, especially
    Class B.
     
  5. If you have a spec-an and lisn, do it yourself and do your own report.
    ACA do not require a certified lab as far as I can remember (an ACA
    uditer told me that), the test houses will try and tell you otherwise.
    The report must have traceable technical content though, ie calibrated
    instruments. The ACA is just as fussy as Germany and more
    beaurocratic. I have been through 3 EMC audits here in Melbourne.

    I think $2000 per day is the current approx going rate. Most devices
    fail their first attempt, and you may need to re-schedule, especially
    Class B.
    http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Leg...e/RadcomLabellingElectromagCompNotice2008.pdf


    What EMC standard depends on device being tested
    http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310707

    Joe
     
  6. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    You HAVE to attend and monitor the tests. I always have. Their 'expert' may not
    even properly understand how the equipment is to be used and misinterpret
    readings. Unless you go for the 'pre-compliance' testing route anything else
    would be totally insane.

    Graham

    p.s there's a lowish (by western) cost ETL testing lab in Bombay near SEEPZ.
    That's not SO far from you. Some of my products went through perfectly
    successfully without at least MY personal attendance but I'm sure the
    sub-contractor's man was there.

    What do you call expensive ?

    For an EMC compliance test in the UK (last one I did was with SEMKO UK) it was ~
    £2000. 2 days lab with me and one operative and included the official report
    IIRC.

    Graham
     
  7. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    Right on. I had to look into C Tick at one time and I found there were
    some sensible get outs too for products in low voume manufacture as well.
    Up to 100 units p.a. IIRC. You just say "it's ok - it's sensibly designed
    with regard to EMC - no-one's ever complained" basically. Prove me wrong !
    I liked that approach.

    The ACA info online I read was GOOD btw. But it will take you time to get
    the feel for this little roller-coaster.

    There's a word for this. It's like 'lab compliance accreditation' but
    that's not it. There is a scheme though for labs worldwide to be mutually
    accredited.

    For high end labs I'd say. They should be giving you advice and fixes for
    that too. Plus ensure they 'understand' YOUR kind of kit. Don't take audio
    to a lab that specialises in medical gear.

    That's why asking about a pre-compliance check for obvious drop-offs is
    such a good idea.

    Graham
     
  8. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    They're all IEC standards (except in the USA - and even that's changing and maybe Canada a bit ) no matter what anyone else tells you. And they can't refuse an
    IEC standard AIUI either.

    All that happens with the 'national' standard is they put a new cover sheet on it and add a 'national foreword'. LOL !

    What's your kit ? I might be able to save you some trouble.

    Graham
     
  9. Den

    Den Guest


    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    I'd love a reference to this part.
    den.
     
  10. Moonshadow

    Moonshadow Guest


    Is anyone able to point me to documentary evidence of this low-volume
    "sensibleness" please. It seems out of character for our regulatory bodies.
     
  11. Den

    Den Guest


    I'd love to be proven wrong but I think this is BS.
     
  12. Guest

    Here's another personal anecdote. Having bought and made some
    equipment we decided to hire it out. Now, we are not a NATA lab but a
    manufacturer. An importer approached us to test some plug packs, AC
    and DC types. They did not want to pay the big prices that the 2 major
    players EMC Tech. and RFI Ind. charge. I did the testing myself and
    produced a report. Our company does have ISO9000 though so I was able
    to put that on the report, at least insofar as instrument cal goes.
    This did not involve an OATS test though since I justified why we
    chose not to do this in the test report.

    Our company tests to European standards since we export, and I do all
    testing here. If a particular susceptibility test is not done, I
    justify it in the report. The ACA insists on the declaration being to
    an Aus/NZ standard though. I was first audited when the ACMA first
    started doing this, and initially they would not accept that I did not
    test to the Aus standard, but I argued and negotiated until they saw
    the light. So in essence, the test documentation is the technical
    evidence and the declaration involves the Australian standards. Be
    warned that to apply for a C-Tick you must provide your company
    details, so there is a good chance of being audited, unlike the
    European system.

    I knew the 5 essential elements the auditors look for and included
    these. Later, I was told that the ACA did an EMC audit on this comapny
    and they found no issues.
     
  13. Den

    Den Guest

    I knew the 5 essential elements the auditors look for and included
    these. Later, I was told that the ACA did an EMC audit on this comapny
    and they found no issues.


    And the 5 essential elements are??? : )
     
  14. Guest

    I think that is called a 'mutual recognition agreement' and knowing
    about this got us through a sticky situation in Canada where we argued
    that since Canada and Europe have an MRA then our product should
    comply. MRA's work at the national level but they bought it.
    Good advise, but the choice of labs in Australia is quite small, as
    you would expect. They all charge similar and high.
    And as someone else said, you must monitor your equipment being tested
    yourself and be ready for quick fixes if you expect a first time pass
     
  15. Guest

    1. The product name is the same in the test report, documentation and
    DOC.
    2. The Australian standard referenced on the DOC.
    3. There is a clear statement of the conclusion of a pass in the
    report.
    4. Graphs of spectrum plots.
    5. A photo of the product with its covers off.

    Of course you should also check the completeness of the technical info
    and other details but the above list is what they like to see. You'll
    notice that photos are not required by law, but if they ask for them,
    I say thats a good enough reason to supply.
     
  16. Moonshadow

    Moonshadow Guest

    I've used one of these co's on three previous occasions, and while their
    service was OK, they charged more per hour than a brain surgeon. Not
    reasonable given they were using perhaps $250,000 max worth of equipment
    and the technician who did the testing was (to be polite) minimally
    qualified.

    Do you know of any other companies in the game in AU to whom I could go
    for a quote?
     
  17. Guest

    Sorry, I don't know any cheaper ones. There are some consultants
    around but I don't have any names any more. If you let us know the
    type of equipment we may have more suggestions, if it is simple.

    I have found with the test houses that I actually knew more sometimes
    than they did about the detail of the standards, and in some cases the
    tests themselves. (this was due to a lot of hard work myself, and I
    only knew a couple of standards, whereas they have to cope with
    dozens). If I was not there monitoring the tests, we would have
    achieved a fail and a wasted day and $'s.

    The benefits of high charges appear to go to the top guys, they do
    very nicely but they pay peanuts to the test guys and admin staff.
    Plenty of domestic air travel for conferences and the usual executive
    trappings. The investment is pretty large though, and they also have a
    huge calibration bill.
     
  18. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    In the archives sorry, bur ACA will still talk to you. Don't be afraid.

    Graham
     
  19. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    Sure, it knocked me out too. Sorry my readily accesible records don't go back
    that far but did it all on the internet.

    Maybe they clamped up now but it sure WAS the way.

    Graham
     
  20. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    It was an ACA document.
     
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