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electric outlet for window AC question

R

ReadyToPuke

Jan 1, 1970
0
What's the going rate in central NJ for
a licensed electrical contractor to upgrade
the wiring from an old breaker panel (1960)
to a wall outlet that would be powering a
new 110 volt window mount air conditioner?

I don't have the exact BTU capacity, but
it's a standard 110v plug, and probably an
existing 15 amp breaker.

When I try to run the unit off the existing
outlet (controlled by a light switch), the
breaker trips immediately.

I have not tried bypassing the light switch
(since it's probably not rated for an AC
compressor starting up).

My thinking however was it would be safer to
run new wire w/double the amperage capacity
(say 30 amps), and put in a new breaker and
feed the outlet directly w/all upgraded wire
and no switch (other than the breaker).

The home is a straightforward single level
ranch structure, I was thinking of doing it
myself, but it might be better to have a "pro"
who's experienced, licensed, etc. do the job.

What's a fair price a typical contractor would
charge ?
 
R

ReadyToPuke

Jan 1, 1970
0
If your A/C is tripping it and there is nothing else on the
circuit, then there is something really wrong with the A/C unit.


Hello,

Thanks for the post.

The unit does work though, when I plug it in at a friends
house (newer wiring), it fires up and runs fine.

So that's why I was thinking just upgrade the wiring,
put in a proper size breaker to match the AC unit, and
bypass the light switch to feed the outlet directly.

What's a fair price for a "pro" to do that sort of job?
 
A

Anthony

Jan 1, 1970
0
@news.monmouth.com:

What's a fair price for a "pro" to do that sort of job?

You aren't going to get a price from here. Without looking at the house,
how it is constructed, distance from the panel to the window in question,
how many extra (if any) slots in the breaker panel, and many, many other
factors, a price cannot be set.
The methodology of the house contruction probably plays the biggest role
in pricing. It may be as simple as using the existing wire to pull in a
new feed, or it may be as complex as having to rip out the wall covering
(drywall, paneling, etc) at both the outlet and the service panel to run
the new wire.



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/
 
C

Chris Lewis

Jan 1, 1970
0
According to said:
You most likely need a 20A circuit, not a 30A. That's what your friend
probably has.

What's most likely happening is that 15A is adequate, but the circuit
is either unduly long (and is 14ga), or has lousy connections, so
the high load of an AC pulls down the voltage too far, the AC works
too hard starting up, and the breaker gives up on it because the startup
surge takes so long.

Heck, the breaker may just be "tired".

Large window mount ACs should have their own circuit.

Usually, a 15A circuit will be fine, but if the circuit is
longer than about 20-30', use 12ga for the circuit. If the
breaker still trips, as long as you've used 12ga, switching
to a 20A breaker is cheap.

There's no way to estimate how much it should cost to do without
seeing it.
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Note what Chris posted. "... or has lousy connections
....". How well connected are wires inside wire nuts and wires
attached to the switch and receptacle. Do they use the screws
on side or do they just push in the back. Low voltage on
startup (due to lousy connections or too long wire) results is
excessive current draw during startup. Verify wires are fully
twisted together inside wire nuts and that connections to
switch and receptacle use side mount screws.

How long is that wire from air conditioner to breaker box?
 
C

Chris Lewis

Jan 1, 1970
0
According to w_tom said:
Note what Chris posted. "... or has lousy connections
...". How well connected are wires inside wire nuts and wires
attached to the switch and receptacle. Do they use the screws
on side or do they just push in the back. Low voltage on
startup (due to lousy connections or too long wire) results is
excessive current draw during startup. Verify wires are fully
twisted together inside wire nuts and that connections to
switch and receptacle use side mount screws.
How long is that wire from air conditioner to breaker box?

I thought I might add one person's experience:

_Many_ years ago, my parents finally got around to installing a window
mount AC. Early 70's house, 15A circuits. Probably only a 6000BTU unit,
whereas 10K (and even some 12K) BTU units can work fine on 15A
circuits.

There's an outlet right underneath the window, on the end of a string
of outlets in the dining room - only use of that circuit was for
the dining room fixture. Simple.

Turn on the AC - _nothing_ else on that circuit turned on. The thing
would make noises for a minute or so struggling to turn on. Lights
dim. This isn't good.

Well, it's hot, we need the cool. We'll worry about another cirucit
later.

Whoops!

Within an hour, all _three_ upstream outlets were smoking, blackened
the outlet covers and stained the wall.

The wires were correctly sized for 15A. The circuit wasn't particularly
long. But the idjit who wired it used the push in terminals. And
it was aluminum wire...

[Push in terminals on Al has always been illegal. But 3 out of 3
catching fire at the same time is pretty spectacular confirmation
that pushins are bad, Al or not.]

When installing an AC on non-dedicated circuits for the first time, DO NOT
LEAVE IT UNATTENDED the first day. Check upstream outlets and switches
for overheating.

It's so much more comfortable having an AC on a dedicated circuit
with a spec-grade (or better) outlet.
 
S

Stormin Mormon

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'll highlight every where that needs more specific information. I think it
makes more sense to run 12 or 14, and breaker it with the proper sized
breaker for the wire size.

I also think that you need an electrician. We can't reasonably quote it over
the internet.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com




What's the going rate in central NJ for
a licensed electrical contractor to upgrade
the wiring from an *old breaker panel (1960)*
to a *wall outlet* that would be powering a
new 110 volt window mount air conditioner?

*I don't have the exact BTU capacity*, but
it's a standard 110v plug, and *probably an
existing 15 amp breaker*.

When I try to run the unit off the existing
outlet (controlled by a light switch), the
breaker trips immediately.

I have not tried bypassing the light switch
(since it's probably not rated for an AC
compressor starting up).

My thinking however was it would be safer to
run new wire w/double the amperage capacity
(say 30 amps), and put in a new breaker and
feed the outlet directly w/all upgraded wire
and no switch (other than the breaker).

The home is a straightforward single level
ranch structure, I was thinking of doing it
myself, but it might be better to have a "pro"
who's experienced, licensed, etc. do the job.

What's a fair price a typical contractor would
charge ?
 
S

Stormin Mormon

Jan 1, 1970
0
About $50 for the tripcharge and $60 an hour. Plus parts. Though, I might be
way too cheep.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com



If your A/C is tripping it and there is nothing else on the
circuit, then there is something really wrong with the A/C unit.


Hello,

Thanks for the post.

The unit does work though, when I plug it in at a friends
house (newer wiring), it fires up and runs fine.

So that's why I was thinking just upgrade the wiring,
put in a proper size breaker to match the AC unit, and
bypass the light switch to feed the outlet directly.

What's a fair price for a "pro" to do that sort of job?
 
R

Roy Q.T.

Jan 1, 1970
0
From what I've read:
I would check and see if it has 12 or 10 AWG [14 awg is out of the
question for an AC {if that's the case you'll need to rewire the
outlet},14Awg is best left for ligting circuits only] bypass the switch
for a test (though not essential) and make sure the receptacle was rated
and well connected., then I'd check the Breaker itself and make sure
it's in good working order and that nothing else is on the circuit.

If you were to rewire the AC wall outlet with 12 or 10 awg, it would
take a home run from the panel [+-125$ cabling only] I'd use #12 or 10
Armoured [BX] Cable and a receptacle & breaker rated for the AC unit.,
It takes 15 Amps Protection (listed on the Plate on the sidefront of the
ac) If cost is not too much a factor I'd definetly use # 10 with a 15
Amp Breaker & a 20 Amp Receptacle (this works well for a future 20A more
powerful unit as well) ., If the run from the panel is 12 Awg and in
good insulated conditions I'd check for anomalies on that
circuit,correct them and probably save you some expense...

Not Estimating yet, But: A Ballpark Figure would be 200-300$ for a new
dedicated circuit = depending on how much digging and terminating is
required.

Troubleshooting and Correcting 55$ -125$ depending on Time and Materials
used.

In NJ it's probably more on the + $ide.
note: AC Mechanics do not do Electrical Troubleshooting or work on
Residential Circuitry., I know I worked for GE door to door. ~Roy~
E.E.Technician

From: (ReadyToPuke)
What's the going rate in central NJ for
a licensed electrical contractor to upgrade the wiring from an old
breaker panel (1960) to a wall outlet that would be powering a new 110
volt window mount air conditioner?
I don't have the exact BTU capacity, but it's a standard 110v plug, and
probably an existing 15 amp breaker.
When I try to run the unit off the existing outlet (controlled by a
light switch), the breaker trips immediately.
I have not tried bypassing the light switch (since it's probably not
rated for an AC compressor starting up).
My thinking however was it would be safer to run new wire w/double the
amperage capacity (say 30 amps), and put in a new breaker and feed the
outlet directly w/all upgraded wire and no switch (other than the
breaker).
The home is a straightforward single level ranch structure, I was
thinking of doing it myself, but it might be better to have a "pro"
who's experienced, licensed, etc. do the job.
What's a fair price a typical contractor would charge ?

<~/
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
One can use a 20 amp receptacle on a circuit powered from a
15 amp breaker? Obviously it is safe. But is that code
legal?
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Appears to be a minor discrepancy between HorneTD and
phil-news-nospam. I agree that nuisance tripping can have
safety consequences. If the NEMA rating for that receptacle
is 20 amps, then one should expect up to 20 amps from that
receptacle.

However, is this discrepancy between both posters created by
a code change, or just by different wording that says same
thing?
The answer is no. The US NEC requires 20 ampere receptacles to be
supplied by a twenty ampere circuit.
 
It could just be that I can't find the part of the code that says
a 15 amp circuit cannot have a 20 amp receptacle

Look at 210.21(B)(3) again. The top line says 15a circuits shall have
receptacles "not over 15a"
 
R

Roy Q.T.

Jan 1, 1970
0
From: [email protected]
On 8 Jun 2005 04:21:48 GMT,
[email protected] wrote:
It could just be that I can't find the part of the code that says a 15
amp circuit cannot have a 20 amp receptacle

Look at 210.21(B)(3) again. The top line says 15a circuits shall have
receptacles "not over 15a"

~>Exactly: I do know why Phil argues anything to the contrary., I even
explained what could physically happen to a 15A receptacle on a @20A
circuit. ®oy
 
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:42:48 -0400 [email protected] wrote:

| On 8 Jun 2005 04:21:48 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
|
|>It could just be that I can't find the part of the code that says
|>a 15 amp circuit cannot have a 20 amp receptacle
|
| Look at 210.21(B)(3) again. The top line says 15a circuits shall have
| receptacles "not over 15a"

What code are you looking at? The top line of what I have says "Where
connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets,
receptacle ratings shall conform ..."


Phil look at TABLE 210.21(B)(3) NEC every year since the FDR
administration.
 
J

John Gilmer

Jan 1, 1970
0
ReadyToPuke said:
What's the going rate in central NJ for
a licensed electrical contractor to upgrade
the wiring from an old breaker panel (1960)
to a wall outlet that would be powering a
new 110 volt window mount air conditioner?

The odds are that it will be about the same as what you paid for the air
conditioner.

I note that Walmart sells 240 units when you get to the 10,000 BTU/hour
size. If you have room for another two pole breaker in you box, it may be
about the same charge from the electrician and you may be happier with a
larger a/c.
I don't have the exact BTU capacity, but
it's a standard 110v plug, and probably an
existing 15 amp breaker.

If you run a new circuit, the electrician likely would want to connect it to
a new breaker.
When I try to run the unit off the existing
outlet (controlled by a light switch), the
breaker trips immediately.

Likely, that's a 15 amp "lighting" circuit. Find an unswitched wall
outlet. You CAN use a heavy duty extension cord. See if it still "trips."
You can save some money.

I have not tried bypassing the light switch
(since it's probably not rated for an AC
compressor starting up).

My thinking however was it would be safer to
run new wire w/double the amperage capacity
(say 30 amps), and put in a new breaker and
feed the outlet directly w/all upgraded wire
and no switch (other than the breaker).

As I said, if you are starting from "scratch" then consider going to a 240
unit.
 
A

Al

Jan 1, 1970
0
For all it's worth, in Massachusetts its about $5/amp. So a 200 amp
service panel is one grand.

Al
 
J

John Gilmer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Remember to size the a/c, to small and the room wont cool off. to large of
an a/c and the a/c will not remove the humidity from the air, causing you to
keep the temperature lower to be comfortable. I think that the a/c will
cycle faster and compressors do not like starting up.

Well, you can compensate for that by running the A/C on "LOW." Most
machines will really pump out the moisture then.

I know the conventional "wisdom" is better slightly too small than too big.
But when you have a HOT day and you A/C is too small, you might as well just
open the windows.
 
R

Roy Q.T.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Argue all you want, FireMouth Tom: I'll reply as I can, if you don't
like it, fine, but don't Misdirect the public or tell me what to do nor
how to do it.....I never thought i'd say this but go jump on a Candy
Apple Red Truck and leave this alone.

FACT IS: 15A receptacles should be used on 15A circuits and if you
think nothin of it put it on a 20A circuit., The Danger is not only in
overloading a 15A circuit with a 20A load but having a perfect 20A
circuit with a 15A receptacle can cause a fire Maybe not today or
tomorrow but in the long run, when others forget it's not rated and plug
in an overload. be it as may be, they are not the same physically., AND
as per the NEC - 20A receptacles are allowed on a 15 Amp circuits
whether you like it or not., it is safe at the user or end level, Now
**** Off !

& The Hell with This Post it's way overdone....®
 
J

John Gilmer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Conventional wisdom is to have the RIGHT size and you get maximum efficiency
and comfort.

Well, the "right" size determination uses ASSUMPTIONS about the outside
temperature and the heat load. Combine an extra hot and humid day with
having a few folks over or just arriving back home after a day or two of
your home being "heat soaked" and your conventional wisdom becomes nonsense.

The problem with running a room conditioner at low is that the outside coil
doesn't get as much circulation but it sure does suck the water out of the
air.

To each his own, but if you have the electrric power and the spare cash when
you buy a window unit, go for a larger size. "Efficiency" just ain't all
that important if all you are cooling is ONE room. >
 
J

John Gilmer

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, conventional wisdom still works. Why risk having an unsatisfactory
situation 95% of the time when the exception is only 5% of the time?

Because its when it's hot as hell outside that you want an A/C that can
keep you cool.

It's "nice" the have an A/C that "pumps" the exact amount of heat AND you
can pay to get a variable capacity central unit. If you have a window
unit, you can reduce capacity by lowering the fan speed, by putting a heater
in the room (this used to be standard in "computer rooms" where it was
essential to keep the RH within a certain range), or by permitting a little
circulation to the remainder of the house. But during those HOT days, that
"extra" capacity is a blessing.
And the inside of the room is not getting proper air circulation either.

Big deal. Turn on the ceiling fan. It will mix the air and even had a
few watts of heat load. And it's fun to watch. Problem solved.
One room may not cost much, but comfort is more important. Maybe you just
have not experienced it properly. That does not mean it does not exist.

You are being silly. If you have a fixed capacity window unit you can size
it to be "too big" all the time (and play games with fan speed to adjust
capacity) or get a unit that's too small some of the time and be downright
miserable. I will gladly sacrifice a few "perfect" days to avoid a single
"miserable" day
 
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