Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Electric motor connections

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
Hi all, hope your Cristmas was a good one :)


I have a query regarding motor connections.

I stripped down our old washing machine as the drum bearings had gone with the view of using the motor in the workshop (I have at least three custom machine shop tools I want to make that need a motor), but can't work out which connections are which.

I normally use single phase with AC control drives, not used to seeing so many connections on one motor and could do with help in identifying them.

I took this in the hope it will help a little.

IMG_20141227_105216.jpg
 

Bluejets

Oct 5, 2014
6,927
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
6,927
Appears to be a series motor by the brown coloured brush holders so I would say offhand it would be or potentially could be, high speed.
Some of these devices use a ramp-up controller to start the motors under load so the number of cables could be for that purpose.
A lot of bare connections there that you could get hungup on so be very careful there.
Machine it came out of should have had some circuit diagram glued to the inside back cover which would help.
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
Couldn't find any circuit diagrams on the inside of the machine housing, been looking online too but nothing regarding this specific motor.

Just need to work out which ones are the power supply contacts, I can isolate the rest as it won't be started under load.
 

Bluejets

Oct 5, 2014
6,927
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
6,927
This appears to be your motor so you will be able to recognise the wiring to the block and determine if it's the same.
Cannot see from your photo.


Just watch you have the motor held securely as they can kick severely when first powered up and jump off the bench.
First reaction will be for you to grab a handful and you could well get booted if not electrocuted so be very careful.
Also, you will have to trace your wiring and connect as appropriate as it may not come out into the terminal block in the same order as the video.

Below is a photo of what I believe your motor should be. Only difference is you are running on AC not DC as shown.
Note:-These motors will run on either but need control for DC to avoid run-away and eventual self destruction developing.
 

Attachments

  • Series motor.jpg
    Series motor.jpg
    63 KB · Views: 154

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
It could be a three phase judging by the gray black and brown wires that are present (U V W respectivly perhaps?).

I'm not keen on motors leaping about myself so I'll be hooking it up to an AC drive with manual speed control as I can ramp it up slowly.
 

BGB

Nov 30, 2014
154
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
154
maybe use a multimeter or similar to probe what connects where.

for example, if it is a brushed DC motor (or a series motor), probably there should be two points with very little resistance (across the motor).

possibly, some of the other wires could be sensors, such as a thermometer and a position sensor or similar (so the controller knows how fast it is going and if it is overheating).

these points may have contact with each other (depending on the sensor or position of the motor or similar), but will not have a connection with the main power contacts.


if it is 3 phase, then there should be 3 or 4 wires with a very low resistance (several ohms or less).

if it is 3 points with nearly all the same resistance (low), then it is likely 3 phase in delta configuration.

if it is 4 points, one of these points should have a lower resistance to the other 3.

say, ABCD AB=1.5ohm, BC=1.5ohm, but AD=BD=CD=0.75ohm;
then it is likely a 3 phase motor in wye configuration.

though, if it has brushes, it is very unlikely to be a 3 phase motor (these normally use stationary coils).

if it has coils in the center, brushes, and big magnets on the outside edges, then there is a higher probability of it being a brushed DC motor.
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
Thanks BGB, that makes a lot of sense, I'll give it a go and see what I find.

Please excuse my ignorance. Is there a big difference between single and three phase, other than the winding setup that is (ie one is higher speed, other is higher torque), or are they just diffent ways of doing the same thing?
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
I have ice on the inside of my shed roof, it's effin cold tonight.

Despite that I found values of 1ohm (grey wire), .9ohm (brown wire) and .4ohm (black). Not sure I did that one right, I put both meter contacts on the black in a move based on logic alone (well ya gotta try right?)
 

Bluejets

Oct 5, 2014
6,927
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
6,927
Three phase don't use a set of brushes. This is single phase series motor as I showed you above.
Rather high speed I would say (10,000rpm plus)
Did you look at the video??
The presence of the speed sensor pretty much confirmed it is the same, but as i said earlier, hard to say from the photo you supplied.
 

BGB

Nov 30, 2014
154
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
154
Thanks BGB, that makes a lot of sense, I'll give it a go and see what I find.

Please excuse my ignorance. Is there a big difference between single and three phase, other than the winding setup that is (ie one is higher speed, other is higher torque), or are they just diffent ways of doing the same thing?

between single phase and brushed DC:
main obvious difference between them is that a single phase motor will always go the same direction (regardless of input polarity), whereas with DC motors, the direction depends on the polarity of the voltage applied. note that in many applications (where electronic controls are needed for the motor, such as in many appliances) high-voltage DC is fed to the motor, rather than AC (IOW: mains power fed through a rectifier, then transistors are used to drive the motor).

their main advantage is simpler electronics, basically, you give them power and they go.
they are good in cases where accurate speed control (under variable loads), wide operating range, and positioning aren't as high of a priority.

electronic controls are also easier with DC than with AC.


with 3 phase (and BLDC):
it is possible to have more precise speed (and position) control, either running lock-step with the mains power (typically requires a 3 phase power connection), or controlled via a motor driver and microcontroller (often called BLDC / Brushless DC in this case, where you can either use them like a stepper motor, or run them at higher-speeds while maintaining a specific RPM, or combinations thereof).

also unlike a single phase AC motor, it is possible to run the motor in either direction (well, unless you dynamically switch the field coil polarity or similar).

however, running a 3-phase motor off of DC or a single-phase power-source generally requires using electronic controls. a delta-wound motor will require a triple H-bridge to run it, whereas a wye-wound motor can use either a triple or quadruple H-bridge (for high torque operation), or can be run in a unipolar configuration, such as by connecting Vcc to common, and using pulldown transistors for each winding.

the usual advantage of delta windings is that they can be run at higher speeds, whereas wye has a wider operating range and allows higher torque.

it is also possible to control speed and torque independently, and run the motors at very low RPM with maintaining high torque (without needing to use gear reduction or a transmission), as the motors' speed is controlled by the phase frequency rather than the voltage (normal brushed motors have a certain minimum speed, and will stall below this point).

for example, the same motor can operate anywhere from 10 RPM to 20,000 RPM, and very accurately change speeds over a large range with the controller at the same time knowing exactly how far the motor has moved.


between BLDC and steppers:
steppers tend to be more designed for high-precision low-speed operation, but generally are fairly limited in terms of maximum RPM;
BLDC motors have a higher range, but tend to be less precise.

for example, a stepper can hold a position of 1/200 or a turn, but be limited to only around 600RPM;
whereas a BLDC motor can easily spin up to 10,000 RPM or more, but may be only have 6 or 12 steps per revolution (microstepping may help though).

also steppers and BLDC motors have different drive patterns.

steppers tend to have 4 or 6 wires and be square. they will generally consist of two separate windings (A and B), with the 6 wire variants having a connection to the mid-point of each winding.
 
Last edited:

BGB

Nov 30, 2014
154
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
154
Three phase don't use a set of brushes. This is single phase series motor as I showed you above.
Rather high speed I would say (10,000rpm plus)
Did you look at the video??
The presence of the speed sensor pretty much confirmed it is the same, but as i said earlier, hard to say from the photo you supplied.

yeah, thus far, this looks like probably the most likely answer.
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
Thanks for confirming that for me bluejets, the three winding terminals was confusing me (as were the brushes, thought they were only for DC motors). Thanks for posting the vid, strangely I hadn't been able to see the vid till now for some reason. The motor in the vid is close enough to translate, will give it a whirl and get back :)
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
Thanks for the detailed explanation BGB, some of it is a bit above my head still, but that clears things up nicely for me overall :)
 

BGB

Nov 30, 2014
154
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
154
Thanks for the detailed explanation BGB, some of it is a bit above my head still, but that clears things up nicely for me overall :)

I did mess up a minor detail though, in that BLDC motors need 3x or 4x half-bridges, not H-bridges. a dual H-bridge driver should be usable for running them though (for low-power motors).

but, yeah, in terms of what they can do, they are very different.

( decided to refrain from going down a rabbit hole of electric motors vs pneumatics vs hydraulics and batteries vs engines or generators in relation to the matter of device size/scale. )
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
I did mess up a minor detail though, in that BLDC motors need 3x or 4x half-bridges, not H-bridges. a dual H-bridge driver should be usable for running them though (for low-power motors).

but, yeah, in terms of what they can do, they are very different.

( decided to refrain from going down a rabbit hole of electric motors vs pneumatics vs hydraulics and batteries vs engines or generators in relation to the matter of device size/scale. )

H-bridges are still a mystery to me as yet, but I'm going to start an electronics engineering course pretty soon.

I've done quite well on research alone so far, even fabricating and assembling my own PCBs with equipment I made from scratch (where possible anyway), but the gaps in my electronics knowlage are starting to hold a lot of ideas and projects back now so thought it was time to address the issue.
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
This pic is of the same AC control drives I have. A 10k pot can be wired to the control terminals (5,6,7) for direct motor speed control at startup.

600_Invertek-E2-Size1-1.jpg

I have one running the extractor fan for my fume hood...
IMG_20140511_092739.jpg

...and one on a mini saw bench I made by combining a jig saw motor and a hobby chop saw (not pictured).

The motor died in the chop saw and I happened to have a jig saw with a broken foot clamp. I was looking for a simple and clean way to cut up my copper clad and the penny dropped as I was stripping down the saws for parts.
 

Canobi

Jul 25, 2014
87
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
87
Got it up and running now, thanks for all the help guys :D
 
Top