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Edison Did Not Invent Light Bulb!

J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Used to be "reduction to practice" was the key. NOW, I'm fighting a
patent scammer who patented a block diagram :-(

...Jim Thompson

Well, we have "big business" to thank for that. Nearly everything gets
cross (dross?) licensed and the corpoRATe sponsors are happy. But Mr/Ms
small cannot get into the club (which is what the corpoRATe entities want,
exclusion of new thought/competition).

We have the best legislature and regulators that money can buy.

?-)
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Correct me if I am wrong, but to get a patent you have to actually say
how to build the thing, no? Even if it is as little as saying, a car
with a motor and brakes, etc. How did the patent ever get granted with
no description of how to build it?

Because the review process has devolved into 'did you properly dot your
"t"s and cross your "i"s'. It was way better when you had to provide a
working example.

?-)
 
Why not find that patent and find out?


Scarcely useful for domestic or theatre lighting, even if you had your own portable thunderstorm.


Obviously not. He invented the carbon arc lamp, and had earlier heated a platinum strip to incandescence in a laboratory demonstration - it wasn't presented as an incipient electric lamp.


Why not read the patent? It's a matter of record.

U.S. Patent 0,223,898 granted 27 January 1880

So you did, and are ready to compare and contrast Edison v. Swann v.
Davy's? Slick, thanks. Where's your analysis?

I tried last week and couldn't--the USPTO servers weren't serving it.
But, it's futile anyway--if Rickman doesn't understand patent art, my
understanding it won't help him. The hypotheticals above were meant
to inspire him, to provide examples to clarify his thinking.
But your own ignorance is some kind of virtue?

It's hard to see why I'm responsible for researching Rickman's beliefs
and explaining why he's wrong--I've taken no position on the Swan vs.
Edison aspect, simply pointed out reasons why it might not be as
simple as it seems.

But, if being constructive on the merits were your aim, we'll look
forward to you doing what you just said---comparing the claimed matter
in the two patents--and reporting.

Personally, I'm amply satisfied that Davy's carbon arc and the
incandescent filament lamps 78 years later are distinct inventions. I
gave a sketch of some of the distinguishing inventive elements above.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
So you did, and are ready to compare and contrast Edison v. Swann v.
Davy's?

No. I wasn't asking the silly questio9ns in the first place, let alone pontificating about stuff that I clearly didn't know much about.

I tried last week and couldn't--the USPTO servers weren't serving it.

But, it's futile anyway--if Rickman doesn't understand patent art, my
understanding it won't help him. The hypotheticals above were meant
to inspire him, to provide examples to clarify his thinking.

Except that Humphrey Davey was invoked in a way that didn't have much to dowith the historical record. "Hypotheticals" that are compleltley off the wall don't clarify anybody's thinking.
It's hard to see why I'm responsible for researching Rickman's beliefs
and explaining why he's wrong--I've taken no position on the Swan vs.
Edison aspect, simply pointed out reasons why it might not be as
simple as it seems.

The reference to Humphrey Davy wasn't Rickman's and your dragging Davy in didn't clarify anybody's thinking.
But, if being constructive on the merits were your aim, we'll look
forward to you doing what you just said---comparing the claimed matter
in the two patents--and reporting.

Why should I? The historians did it many years ago, not to mention Swan andEdison's patent lawyers, and Edison lost, in court, and in the historical record. His publicity machine ignored this at the time, and Swan was happy to leave him to exploit the US market for their mutual benefit.
Personally, I'm amply satisfied that Davy's carbon arc and the
incandescent filament lamps 78 years later are distinct inventions.

Wow. Most people would settle for asserting that a 78 year gap was persuasive argument, but you have to tell us that you find it personally satisfying..
I gave a sketch of some of the distinguishing inventive elements above.

So your "hypotheticals" are now promoted to "distinguishing inventive elements". You do like your straw men, but promoting them in mid-argument is a little transparent, even for you.
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes - after Edison lost the first round of legal niceties Edison didn't
have much choice. And yes with Edison's marketing skills Swan made a
wise decision.


I guess peer reviewed analysis free from political and patriotic
distortions.

See my previous post. There ain't no such thing. That is the point Grob
and Billias make so resoundingly. And that is just US history (since the
revolutionary era at that, most of the pre-columbian history has been
lost). Scale it up to world history and soo many records are lost (or
never created) that we will never know.

?-)
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
He' s not a moron. I'm not sure he's wrong about corruption in our
patent office back then either--some of the other early tech patents
had some hocus-pocus going on.

That's the nature of governments. Government are made of men, and
both are corruptible. Indeed, the one encourages the other--"Power
corrupts," etc. Or as Madison famously wrote, "If men were
angels,..."

The odd thing is that the people correctly most critical, least-
satisfied with, and least-trusting of government, are the same who
insist we need much more of it.

We seem to run in polar opposite circles of people. All the people that i
associate with that want bigger government, trust it way too completely;
and the ones that want smallest government that can do the job, distrust
it the most.

Or maybe they are all fooling me.

?-)
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0

You really need to take a course in ethical argument, which would teach youthat you ought to refrain from text-chopping, or at least mark your snips.

In the meantime, note that there's no virtue in recapitulating a well-established and documented historical point. It is well-known that Edison did not invent the filament lamp, though he made a lot of money out of selling his version of Swan's invention. One-eyed American patriots have trouble forgetting what they were miss-taught in school. You've got a similar problem with the economic nonsense that you soaked up before you could know better.

You do need a de-programmer, but you are the last person to realise that you need that kind of help.
 
You really need to take a course in ethical argument, which would teach you that you ought to refrain from text-chopping, or at least mark your snips.

I'm not going to argue with you Bill. You're trolling, your points
are vapid, and it's boring.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm not going to argue with you Bill.

Because you'd look even sillier than you do now.
You're trolling, your points
are vapid, and it's boring.

But correct. Not the most gracious concession I've seen, but backing down is backing down, no matter how ungraciously it's done.
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0

No. The carbon arc lamp was a distinct other technology.
The patented invention in this example isn't "light bulb," it's
whatever novel feature the inventor adds, claims, and describes.

It's not "using electricity to produce light," that was old hat.
It's not "heating a filament with electricity," that had been done
too, if badly.
Would "light by electrical discharge" follow as an obvious variation?
If so, why wasn't lightning prior art?

Did Humphrey Davy describe a durable filament enclosed in an evacuated
glass envelope, and the materials and construction of these, the
methods of attaching electrodes, and what kind?

What did Edison claim to have invented? Did Edison patent a specific
filament material or construction or method of constructing, and Swan
a completely distinctly different means of achieving the same end? Or
was heating to incandescence with an electrical current the patented
matter?

Edison copied Swann's earlier UK patent and filed a patent in the USA.
The crucial features were a pure high impedance carbon filament in a
vacuum protected by a glass envelope so it lasted a thousand hours.
It's hard to see how everyone can be so absolutely sure of everything,
without knowing any of it.

He literally claimed to have invented Swann's light bulb but in America!
He may have had a slightly better vacuum but it was a rip off copy.

It was a close run thing. Lots of people were playing with essentially
the same technology of thin conductor in a glass vacuum envelope.

Edison's 1880 US light bulb patent was subsequently invalidated in
October 1883 due to prior art claims by William Sawyer something else
which US revisionist history chooses to ignore. Edison's patent was
later reinstated in 1889 after they had combined forces and Swan altered
his own story to enable them to game the US patent system.

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Edison_Swan_Electric_Co

I have been able to find Edison's 1880 patent in full online:

<http://www.google.com/patents?id=IhdhAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false>

I have not so far been able to find a free access copy of Swanns UK or
US patents. The poor guy is very much ignored these days. However,
contemporaneous records do show that he won the first round patent
battle and that at the Paris exhibition of 1881 where Edison and Swann
both exhibited Swann was honoured by the French President with the
'Chevalier de la Legion d'Honneur' in recognition of his invention.

http://www.kstc.co.uk/josephswan/compare.html

Swann also beat a patent infringement claim by Edison in the UK - a
result which led to them joining forces to defend against other claims.

US history rewriting now pretends that Edison was the inventor of the
carbon filament light bulb. Swann later played along with this story to
make legal action in the USA against other competitors easier and in
1889 Edison's 1880 US patent was reinstated.

Here is a somewhat US'o'centric history of the electric light bulb which
if you only read the top bit would give you the impression that Edison
really was the true inventor - but read on to the end...

http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/lightbulb.htm

Note how they have fiddled the criteria to get the "right" answer.
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have been able to find Edison's 1880 patent in full online:

<http://www.google.com/patents?id=IhdhAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false>


I have not so far been able to find a free access copy of Swanns UK or
US patents. The poor guy is very much ignored these days. However,
contemporaneous records do show that he won the first round patent
battle and that at the Paris exhibition of 1881 where Edison and Swann
both exhibited Swann was honoured by the French President with the
'Chevalier de la Legion d'Honneur' in recognition of his invention.

Finding a patent number and a bit of educated guesswork gets me:

http://www.google.com/patents/US233...QUbqNAsHFPYCMgNAP#v=onepage&q=233,445&f=false

So now you can compare the US patents in detail side by side.

I still can't find a free access copy of his UK patent :(

And here is the earlier Sawyer prior art patent 205,144 as well.

http://www.google.com/patents/US205...by8NrLJ0AW-_YGgDg#v=onepage&q=205,144&f=false
 
B

bud--

Jan 1, 1970
0
No. The carbon arc lamp was a distinct other technology.

Edison copied Swann's earlier UK patent and filed a patent in the USA.
The crucial features were a pure high impedance carbon filament in a
vacuum protected by a glass envelope so it lasted a thousand hours.

He literally claimed to have invented Swann's light bulb but in America!
He may have had a slightly better vacuum but it was a rip off copy.

It was a close run thing. Lots of people were playing with essentially
the same technology of thin conductor in a glass vacuum envelope.

Edison's 1880 US light bulb patent was subsequently invalidated in
October 1883 due to prior art claims by William Sawyer something else
which US revisionist history chooses to ignore. Edison's patent was
later reinstated in 1889 after they had combined forces and Swan altered
his own story to enable them to game the US patent system.

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Edison_Swan_Electric_Co

Did Edison know of the work of Swann or Sawyer? (I have no idea.) He
could have eventually stumbled on the same construction. That, of
course, would not help him with a patent.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
I really doubt that it was a big conspiracy to take credit away from
all but Edison, or from Britian.

No conspiracy, just the natural tendency of authors writing for the US market to construct a narrative that makes Americans feel good.
I don't doubt that everybody read everybody's patents, and tried to
work around them. People still do exactly this, and always will.

If for instance Swann had the superior patent, why didn't he simply
take Edison to court and wipe him out? Or vice versa.

He did take him to court, and won. Swan figured he could make more money out of Edison's existing sales and manufacturing set-up by getting Edison cut to him in than he could by shutting him down entirely and trying to set up his own US operation.
The courts of the day found that Edison and Swann both had valid
claims. If this were not so, one of them would have achieved total
victory, and we would not remember the name of the loser.

Swan did achieve total victory, and got to chose how he exploited it.
But that's not what happened. Ultimately, Edison and Swann were more
interested in making fortunes, so they merged their claims.

Edison's preferences didn't matter all that much - Swan made him an offer he was happy to accept.
Nor is any of this exactly a secret - the records are ample, and still
exist, 130 years later. I saw some of the records at the Edison museum
in Naples, Florida.

That said, the media tend to "oversimplify". And Fleet Street is a
leader in such things. We Yanks learnt from them.

The UK regard the "gutter Press" as a US innovation. William Randolph Hearst has a lot to answer for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Randolph_Hearst
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
I really doubt that it was a big conspiracy to take credit away from
all but Edison, or from Britian.

It certainly looks like it if you do an internet search!
Even idea finder redefines "invention" to give priority to Edison!
I don't doubt that everybody read everybody's patents, and tried to
work around them. People still do exactly this, and always will.

If for instance Swann had the superior patent, why didn't he simply
take Edison to court and wipe him out? Or vice versa.

He could have done and actually did, but he also recognised that Edison
was a far better businessman and the US market huge so he made a
strategic decision to join forces and take a share of the profits.

Patent law had the potential to destroy both companies and only make the
slimy fat lawyers rich. Neither of them wanted that so once it was clear
that Swanns patent claims were stronger Edison agreed to a deal.
However, in the US at least Edison also got to rewrite history.

Much the same sort of thing as happened in the UK where Newton and his
supporters pretty much eliminated the unfortunate Hooke from history (up
to and including destroying almost every portrait of the man). It has
taken nearly three hundred years to redress that injustice...
The courts of the day found that Edison and Swann both had valid
claims. If this were not so, one of them would have achieved total
victory, and we would not remember the name of the loser.

But that's not what happened. Ultimately, Edison and Swann were more
interested in making fortunes, so they merged their claims.

Edison was certainly interested in making his fortune, whilst Swann was
a lot more interested in the science, chemistry and engineering.
Nor is any of this exactly a secret - the records are ample, and still
exist, 130 years later. I saw some of the records at the Edison museum
in Naples, Florida.

A reasonable summary of the early history of light bulbs is online at:

http://www.debook.com/Bulbs/LB01swan.htm
http://www.debook.com/Bulbs/LB02edison.htm
http://www.debook.com/Bulbs/LB03ediswan.htm

Swann also invented the most effective filament material of the day.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
From grade school in the 1950s, what I remember is not that Edison
invented the light bulb, but that he invented (after 5000 failed
experiments) the first practical electric lighting system (not just the
lamps). I do not recall any mention of Swann. But this is grade
school.


Yes. And Edison was far richer at the time.

We have these fights today as well. The typical pattern is that there
are multiple valid patents, none being sufficient to build the item in
question, so the patent owners are in a quandary. The usual solution
is merger or a patent pool or the like.

Not quite the same situation. Edison had one patent and it turned out to beinvalid.
Avoiding litigation is a very good idea. I don't know if Swann's
patent was stronger, or simply strong enough, but the effect was the
same.


He was good at that, and famous for it. Aided and abetted by the media
of the day.


Even more egregious was Newton's persecution of the fellow that
discovered the achromat lens. Newton had declared chromatic aberration
to be impossible to remedy (which is why he invented the Newtonian
Telescope), only to be refuted by this upstart, whom he destroyed.

He seems to have done it very effectively. Chester Moore Hall apparently had the first achromatic doublet made in 1733, six years after Newton died.
But I bet he didn't mind the fortune - there wasn't much government
funding of research in those days.


Better than bamboo? Easier to make for sure. But eclipsed by tungsten
soon after.

In 1904, some twenty years later.
The carbonized ~rayon path to carbon fiber is used to this day, as the
carbon fiber in composite materials.

This isn't strictly accurate. Joseph Swan used cellulose nitrate fibre as the basis for his filaments, while rayon is more or less pure cellulose, andcorrespondingly less inflammable. Apparently polyacrylonitrile has replaced rayon as the preferred starting material for structural carbon fibre.
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes. And Edison was far richer at the time.

We have these fights today as well. The typical pattern is that there
are multiple valid patents, none being sufficient to build the item in
question, so the patent owners are in a quandary. The usual solution
is merger or a patent pool or the like.

Swann also recognised that in America the patent system is such that the
winner is usually the local guy with the deepest pockets. He was saved
the trouble of fighting there by a local getting Edisons patent
disallowed. Later after they were collaborating they needed to get
Edisons 1880 patent reinstated and so played up his contribution.
Avoiding litigation is a very good idea. I don't know if Swann's
patent was stronger, or simply strong enough, but the effect was the
same.

They didn't avoid litigation Edison sued Swann for infringement of his
patent in the UK and Swann crushed him. Then they decided to join forces
to exploit the technology whilst they still had a lead. Swann at the
time had the key valid patent and Edison had been defeated in patent
battles in both the UK (where he fought Swann and lost) and US (the
latter ruled invalid and struck down for prior art by Wallace).

Edison was forced to collaborate with Swann after his patent defeats.
He was good at that, and famous for it. Aided and abetted by the media
of the day.



Even more egregious was Newton's persecution of the fellow that
discovered the achromat lens. Newton had declared chromatic aberration
to be impossible to remedy (which is why he invented the Newtonian
Telescope), only to be refuted by this upstart, whom he destroyed.

Are you sure about that? I am a former astronomer and AFAIK the
mathematics to design achromats dates from long after Newtons death.

Dolland is usually credited with inventing the achromat and patenting it
- he won the Copley medal for it too in 1758 although Bass had made
similar things 20 years earlier to a design by Charles Moore Hall. The
earliest date quoted for Bass having made the first achromat is 1727 -
the same year that Newton died. Seems unlikely he did much persecuting.

There might have been some other guy who put together a serendipitous
crown and flint doublet or glass and water design before Newton died but
it seems a bit unlikely. Do you any names or dates for this?

The point here is that in science experiment always trumps theory so if
the guy did construct such an achromat all he had to do was show it to
the Royal Society which despite being Newton's plaything was still very
independent minded and would quickly see that it worked.

Eulers mathematics for predicting dispersion in optics wasn't done until
1747 and Newton had died twenty years earlier. It was testing Eulers
ideas that clearly conflicted with Newtons claims in Opticks that led
Dollond to the first achromatic lens design (as opposed to trial and
error combos of different optical components).
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
I did read the story in optical design books (or biographies), versus
telescope texts. Bill Sloman said that the victim was Chester Moore
Hall, which sounds right to me, but I have not found my source. It was
a bit ugly, so many sources choose to omit that detail.

It could possibly have been in the latter part of Newtons life, but it
seems a bit odd since a convincing experimental demonstration of his
technology would have shot Newton down in flames. But according to what
little of his private papers survive it is thought he only really hit
upon the idea of two materials compensating around 1729 (2 years after
Newton had died). Best biography of him that I can find online is:

http://www.southendtimeline.com/chestermoorhall.htm

There is no doubt that Newtons convincing demonstration of the wavelike
nature of light by Newtons rings slowed down the development of quantum
theory and helped put Hooke's nose well out of joint. As did the
standing on the shoulders of giants jibe - geniuses can be a bit odd.
 
B

Bill Sloman

Jan 1, 1970
0
The patent systems also differed in a very fundamental aspect back
then: The US awarded patents to the first to invent, while in the rest
of the world it was first to file the patent application. The US
changed to first-to-file as of 15 April 2013.


This too is the usual path - first a test of strength or two, then the
settlements.

The question to ask is that if Swann won completely, on all fronts, why
did he need or want Edison? Edison must have had something Swann
needed. I don't know the details, but it may well have been the rest
of the system needed to use the light bulbs.

What Edison had were US factories and a product distribution system. Swan was happy to take a cut - easier than setting up his own.
I did read the story in optical design books (or biographies), versus
telescope texts.

So cite them.
Bill Sloman said that the victim was Chester Moore
Hall,

That's not what I said at all. I pointed out that his lens became known only after Newton was dead, which struck me as making it unlikely that he was Newton's victim.
which sounds right to me, but I have not found my source. It was
a bit ugly, so many sources choose to omit that detail.

So find your source. It sounds more like a false memory to me - something your sub-conscious has cobbled together out of bits of other stories.
 
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