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Dubya says "Hydrogen is the future."

S

steamer

Jan 1, 1970
0
--Think about it: it's the single "alternative" fuel that's totally
dependent on oil and dubya is an oil man.
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
GeekBoy said:
Instead of offering a tax break on fuel.

Why should he do that? He should crank _UP_ the taxes on fuels (on a
gradual, linear basis with lots of fair warning) and use the funds
thus generated to build the fuel economy of the future (whatever that
is).

I'd love to see a buck a gallon a year increase in gasoline taxes,
then we'll see the end of the Suburban Assault Vehicle and the ready
availabilty of 50MPG cars. Heck, if Europe can do it, maybe the US
can too.

Ah, but that would require some backbone from the politicians. Sigh.
 
M

Mary Fisher

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pete C. said:
The problem is that Europe can't really do it, at least not and make it
actually work in a sustainable manner.

It is doing.we have no choice.
They also have the advantage of
much more compact countries where mass transit is more viable than it is
in much of the US.

You have trains.
Despite the ignorant bashing of the "Suburban Assault Vehicles" as you
put it, a very large portion of the population and the economy in the US
is very dependent on larger vehicles that can actually carry cargo, not
just two people like the touted 50MPG cars.

The economy isn't the avreage driver.
Politicians aren't supposed to have backbone, they are to follow the
will of the people that elected them,

Oh come on! Even in Europe that doesn't work!

Mary
 
J

JoeSP

Jan 1, 1970
0
GeekBoy said:
Instead of offering a tax break on fuel.

The world is now capable of consuming virtually all the petroleum it can
produce. Do you know what that means? It means that prices will continue to
rise until only a few can afford to buy it.

Your recipe is to subsidize a lower price? How do you think that will help
the supply situation?

I agree with Bush that alternate energy sources will be needed, but I
disagree that the hydrogen has all the answers. I think the eventual
solution will come from a combination of alternate energy sources, such as
wind, solar, water and probably nuclear. Some fuels such as hydrogen can be
manufactured from energy sources, but cheap and massive sources of energy
would be required. It is possible, but not without massive investment, and
a very long payback period.

Other fuels can take up the slack such as biofuels and coal oil, but they
are really just new forms of petroleum that are more expensive to produce.
Besides that, they still pollute where hydrogen does not.

The big pie in the sky of course, would be a cheap, clean and unlimited
source of energy, such as a fusion reactor, hot fusion if you will. The
main problem is that it hasn't been made to work feasibly yet. There is a
way to make it work, using Helium-3, but it doesn't naturally occur on
earth. There's plenty of it on the moon, but getting it here is a very
expensive proposition.

I guess it's best to face the fact that the windfall of cheap energy is
over. We raided nature's storehouse and got a free ride from exploiting the
earth's supply of cheap fuel while it lasted. The days of blasting down the
interstate, using 75,000 watts just to get to the next town.
 
B

brian mitchell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pete C. said:
Politicians aren't supposed to have backbone, they are to follow the
will of the people that elected them, regardless of their personal
feelings. Politicians are a barnacle left from years past when there was
no ability for mass communication which necessitated the election of
representatives to do the bidding of the people. Politicians are
obsolete in this age of connectivity and they could and should be
replaced by a direct mandatory issue by issue voting system.


A recipe for disaster, in my view. It's already the case that political
parties have to hugely oversimplify issues in order to attract voting
numbers but nonetheless there are many situations governments have to
deal with which don't feature in general political polls/elections.

In other words, parties and their publicity machineries already dumb
down important issues. To have every issue decided by endless referenda
would result in absolute lowest common denominator decisions. It's
acknowledged even now that the voter votes primarily according to
his/her pocketbook, but they vote for a package which includes much they
don't understand or care about. "His/her pocketbook" means narrow
self-interest, and it's doubtful that the large mass of voters would
ever vote *against* their own perceived interest.

The reason Europe is failing to make any significant impact on
environmental sustainability issues is that the politicians will not
make unpopular decisions, and restraining one's appetite for consumption
is not a widely popular idea. In Britain, at least, --in spite of brave
promises to reduce carbon emissions-- car ownership and use has
increased, air travel has increased, electricity use has increased, and
so on. Politicians are incapable of saying No, when their livelihood,
status, etc, depends on them saying Yes.


brian mitchell
 
B

Bill in Schenectady

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pete C. said:
Not really, nearly all trains in the US are freight. Most large metro
areas have light passenger rail and/or subways, but they represent a
very small percentage of the total US area (it's a big country you
know). Even in those metro areas many of the people who commute on the
train still have to drive a considerable distance to park at the nearest
train station and take the train the rest of the way.

Yet most of the PEOPLE live in metropolitan areas, not in the wide open
spaces. Yes it is a big country but most travel is done within metropolitan
areas or between nearby metropolitan areas where trains could be very
effective.

And the average driver quite often isn't driving the big vehicle - it's
an over hyped myth. Plenty of people drive smaller vehicles and plenty
of people who drive big vehicles actually need them and utilize their
extra capacity. The number of people who drive a big vehicle and never
utilize it's capacity is really quite small despite what the SUV bashing
crowd claims.
You must be commuting on different roads than I am. I see about 30% to 40%
of the commuting traffic in either SUV's or pickup trucks. Of those, at
least 90% are carrying one person and no cargo.
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Per steamer:
--Think about it: it's the single "alternative" fuel that's totally
dependent on oil and dubya is an oil man.

Does it grate on anybody besides me when media people and/or politicians refer
to hydrogen as a "fuel" - as if there were hydrogen mines somewhere...?

To me, hydrogen is a storage/transmission medium for energy that is gotten by
some other means - whether from fossil fuel, nuclear energy, solar energy, wind
power...or whatever.

In the narrowest technical/legalistic sense, it can be called a "fuel" because
that's what's going "bang" when the engine turns over ... but I think that is
misleading and obscures it's true role.
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Per Pete C.:
Politicians are
obsolete in this age of connectivity and they could and should be
replaced by a direct mandatory issue by issue voting system.

I'd disagree. I think politicians serve at least two legitimate functions:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) To serve as conduits of power from non-voting entities - like big
corporations. Probably the words "corruption", "kickbacks", and
"payoffs" would be more widely used... but "campaign contributions"
seem to be the accepted euphemism.

Not a nice function, but one that will be fulfilled one way or another.


2) To serve as a damper on the whims of the mob. Sometimes the passions of
the electorate are quickly inflamed by some event (as in 911...) and there's
a need for cooler heads to prevail in the short run.
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Per (PeteCresswell):
Does it grate on anybody besides me when media people and/or politicians refer
to hydrogen as a "fuel"

After reading JoeSP's post, I think I see where my problem is: semantics.

"Fuel" vs "Energy Source". Hydrogen is, indeed, a fuel - but not an energy
source.

But I think that lack of distinction is rather widespread..... and in a lot of
contexts, I still think calling hydrogen a "fuel" smacks of considering it to be
an energy source.
 
N

Nog

Jan 1, 1970
0
GeekBoy said:
Instead of offering a tax break on fuel.

Dubya knows you make hydrogen with oil and natural gas. But you release all
the pollution and co2 while making hydrogen. The fact that only water comes
out the tail pipe of the car is meaningless. The same pollution was made
with the crude before it gets to your car.
 
D

digitalmaster

Jan 1, 1970
0
brian mitchell said:
A recipe for disaster, in my view. It's already the case that political
parties have to hugely oversimplify issues in order to attract voting
numbers but nonetheless there are many situations governments have to
deal with which don't feature in general political polls/elections.

In other words, parties and their publicity machineries already dumb
down important issues. To have every issue decided by endless referenda
would result in absolute lowest common denominator decisions. It's
acknowledged even now that the voter votes primarily according to
his/her pocketbook, but they vote for a package which includes much they
don't understand or care about. "His/her pocketbook" means narrow
self-interest, and it's doubtful that the large mass of voters would
ever vote *against* their own perceived interest.

The reason Europe is failing to make any significant impact on
environmental sustainability issues is that the politicians will not
make unpopular decisions, and restraining one's appetite for consumption
is not a widely popular idea. In Britain, at least, --in spite of brave
promises to reduce carbon emissions-- car ownership and use has
increased, air travel has increased, electricity use has increased, and
so on. Politicians are incapable of saying No, when their livelihood,
status, etc, depends on them saying Yes.


brian mitchell

A mass voting system is an absolute democracy.An absolute democracy=mob
rule.Which is why we DO NOT live in a democracy...we live in a
Constitutional Republic.It would be cruel terrible world if we had true
democracy.
 
B

Bill in Schenectady

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pete C. said:
Not really, most people live 20 - 40 miles outside of those metro areas.
The current mass transit systems do not reach out nearly far enough to
make a real dent in the number of people who have to commute by car. The
current mass transit basically functions to shuttle people in to the
city from outlying parking lots where land is cheaper, not to get them
from their homes to the city.

Learn a little about demographics and geography. Metropolitan areas,
particularly the larger ones, stretch for more than 40 miles. You may live
40 miles from the city, but you're still in the metro area.

As oil becomes more scarce and more expensive, it will become increasinly
impossible for most people to live that far out. By necessity, housing
patterns will become more dense and mass transit will expand to serve those
dense housing patterns. Work places will cluster by economic necessity
because they will depend on people being able to get to work without a car.

Lifestyles will change due to the new energy realities. You're absolutely
right that mass transit cannot adequately serve a highly dispersed
population, but that population will, by necessity, become less dispersed.
In larger metro areas, you'll see expanded commuter trains with busses
bringing people from surrounding communities to train stations.

People live far from the transit or work node because they can...not because
they have to. Once they can longer sustain themselves that way, that will
change. In the process, many McMansions will collapse in value.
Even extending these rail lines another 50 miles out from the cities
will no eliminate the commuting since it still has individual pickup
points wide distances apart and people still need to get from their
homes to those stations. This is not a case where a few more miles of
rail line will allow people to walk a few blocks from their homes to the
rail station as is the case in many denser areas in Europe.

See my comments above. The solution is not expanding mass transit to serve
every person on their half acre lot. The solution is to change settlement
patterns so that we can once again live and work in areas served by a better
supported mass transit system.

Part of the pattern will include, like in Europe, bus systems that are
coordinated with train systems so that smaller communities and neighborhoods
that aren't next to the rail stations are also served. Think of all the
parking lot space at the train stations that will be saved!
I apparently am as I see similar percentages of larger vehicles, but at
least 50% are carrying some cargo. Also realize that due to taxes and
insurance in the US it is not economically feasible to have a second
small car for commuting purposes. If you need the larger vehicle for
some portion of your life, you end up having to also use it for non
cargo uses as well since the additional cost of taxes and insurance far
outweigh the potential gas savings.

The cars on the highways where I live are primarily office commuters. If
they need a large vehicle, it's only for their home and garden needs; not
for working needs. We're actually thinking of purchasing a pickup truck
with three other families so that there is that one cargo vehicle when
needed for home needs. No need to commute in it, though.

Back when I commuted regularly in my truck (I telecommute full time
now), I calculated the economics of a second small car for commuting. At
the time it worked out to spending something like $1,500 per year in
extra taxes, insurance and maintenance to save about $300 in gas. Even
at today's gas prices it would have been a loss.

Congratulations for telecommuting...the ultimate energy saver. Even without
the neighborhood pickup truck though, on the rare occasion that I have to
move or transport something, I can rent a truck and spend much less than
owning one and commuting in it.
 
D

digitalmaster

Jan 1, 1970
0
(PeteCresswell) said:
Per (PeteCresswell):

Make it 3:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) To bring a few extra IQ points to decisions that cannot be
characterized in
a sound byte or reduced to a simplistic statement - which seems to me to
be about the limit of our national consciousness.
I agree...If you can't learn all you need to know from a 45 second
commercial while you suck down another beer....most folks don't care enough
to find out.
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pete C. said:
Despite the ignorant bashing of the "Suburban Assault Vehicles" as you
put it, a very large portion of the population and the economy in the US
is very dependent on larger vehicles that can actually carry cargo, not
just two people like the touted 50MPG cars.

I know. I drive a station wagon that holds 7 people because I
occasionally _need_ to carry 7. Lots of the time it's just me. It
only gets 20-22MPG, where the 'same' car in Germany with a diesel
engine gets 42MPG. My problem is I can't _buy_ the diesel...
Politicians are
obsolete in this age of connectivity and they could and should be
replaced by a direct mandatory issue by issue voting system.

Oh, right, so we can vote _ourselves_ the bread and circuses...
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mary Fisher said:
You have trains.

Not so as you'd notice. Public transportation in the US is a joke,
though it's kinda the chicken/egg thing. No-one uses it because it
doesn't work very well, which means it's underfunded into a death
spiral...
 
L

Larry

Jan 1, 1970
0
William said:
I know. I drive a station wagon that holds 7 people because I
occasionally _need_ to carry 7. Lots of the time it's just me. It
only gets 20-22MPG, where the 'same' car in Germany with a diesel
engine gets 42MPG. My problem is I can't _buy_ the diesel...


Oh, right, so we can vote _ourselves_ the bread and circuses...

Can't do much worse than what we get now. Right now there is only the
illusion of citizen participation. And most of the citizens are on to it.

Realistically, we need the equivalent of an Apollo program to make
affordable renewable energy a reality. That means a multi-corporate
effort, a government effort, or a combination. Government needs to be
involved to give it direction, if nothing else. We also need to rethink
the deregulation that everyone got sold on by Reagan and company. And
the oil companies don't get a vote.
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
VW sells lots of TDIs in the US so it must be available somewhere...

The Passat wagon only holds five, and is only available (in the US) in
a gas engine that gets 23/31MPG. In England it get 36/58MPG, but
again that's with a diesel.
 
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