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Divide by N chip

Discussion in 'Electronic Components' started by TRABEM, Sep 24, 2005.

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  1. TRABEM

    TRABEM Guest

    Hi all,

    I need a divide by N chip, covering a divide range of 20 to 300 or so.
    I know I can build it with a binary counter and an 8 input nand gate.
    But, I'd like to have it all in one chip if possible.

    They used to make these things for phase locked loop building blocks,
    but I don't see anything like that listed in the Mouser catalog...so I
    need some suggested vendors and part numbers that might be
    appropriate.

    It would be nice if it had a crystal oscillator built in or perhaps
    just a crystal input. But, a plain ole divider would meet my needs and
    I could do my own oscillator.

    If it covers a larger range of N values, that's ok too.

    Any suggestions? Who makes these things today?

    Thanks,

    T
     
  2. Guest

    Programmable logic chip. Ask around on comp.arch.fpga.

    Don't forget to tell them the frequency you hope to get out of your
    crystal oscillator.
     
  3. Guest

    Intels 8255 have divide by N asfair. 16 bit counter. But maybe not available
    at the speedy you want?
     
  4. Rich Grise

    Rich Grise Guest

    Take your pick:
    http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/index.htm
    http://www.microchip.com

    Have Fun!
    Rich
     
  5. TRABEM

    TRABEM Guest

    Interesting answer Rich, thanks.

    Has FPGA technology progressed to the point of being available to
    average users or is it still megabucks commercial users in big
    quantity technology?

    If I could do the whole job with a single FPGA, I'd go for it in a
    heart beat.

    My entire project involves a programmable binary divider, with
    programming being done by outboard switches to gate the desired
    combination of outputs back to the reset on the counter so that free
    running divide by N from 2 to 255 is all that's needed, with a 20 Mhz
    input to divide by N.

    Any possibility of using a single fpga chip without breaking the
    bank???

    Thanks,

    T
     
  6. keith

    keith Guest

    Your requirements seem to be pretty modest. A CPLD would likely do the
    job for a few bucks. The Xilinx CoolRunner XCR3032XL-10CS48 is $2.15 in
    onesies.
     
  7. TRABEM

    TRABEM Guest

    Is a CPLD a lower cost FPGA?

    Do the programming tools use a graphic interface to assemble gates, or
    does the user need to know programming?

    Hardware needed for burning the chip and the software for designing it
    costs how much?

    Can you suggest a web source of a simple/basic intro to teh
    technology, something along the lines of CPLD 101?

    Newsgroups or mailing lists that cater to people wanting to learn this
    technology?

    Maybe I should be using these chips, it sure beats using lager and
    more expensive PCB's and discrete gates.

    Thanks,

    T
     
  8. keith

    keith Guest

    They're the same, but different. ;-). CPLDs have fewer, but more
    complicated, programmable blocks. Basically they have a fairly large PLA
    in front of fewer latches. FPGAs are richer in latches and less rich in
    logic. To put it another way, FPGAs are finer grained programmable
    devices than CPLDs. The Xilinx cool-runner parts are flash based so don't
    need any external programmin. Their FPGAs are SRAM based and thus
    volitile.

    You only need a few dozen latches (at most), so either would
    likely work. Non-volitile is likely a benefit for your application too.
    THere are schematic capture tools, as well as "programming" languages
    (Verilog, VHDL, etc.). Personally, I'd rather use VHDL for such a
    project. It's easy to pick up for a small application like this. You
    could even do structural VHDL and instantiate the registers and logic
    directly. IMO, this is a perfect sort of application to get one's "feet
    wet".
    Dunno. I haven't looked lately. Check the Xilinx site. The programming
    cable isn't all that expensive. Software for all but the largest devices
    is free. The third party software has more function but does get
    quite pricey (I had >$80K in Synplicity software on my laptop at one point).
    Try opencores.com or do a search on "programamable logic", or some
    such. For my first design I had a really good introductory VHDL book. I
    can't remember the name off-hand, but I'll try to look it up when
    I get into work (my copy grew legs). I could probably whip together a
    VHDL "design" for what you want in a half hour or so. I'd have to re-read
    your requirements though. ...and it is Sunday. ;-)
    Comp.arch.fpga is where all the Xilinx people hang out. They are quite
    responsive to their customers (and kind to newbs ;).
    There is a reason Xilinx, Altera, et.al. are in business. Watch "feature
    creep" though. ;-)
     
  9. Kryten

    Kryten Guest

  10. Hal Murray

    Hal Murray Guest

    Divid by N is trivial. How much similar junk/glue logic do
    you have that can be moved into a CPLD/FPGA.

    Xilinx and Altera are the major players in the FPGA market.
    Both offer free software. Poke around on their web sites.

    FPGAs seem to come in 2 flavors. One is the high performance,
    high price, bleeding edge. The other is high volume, low price,
    reasonable performanace.

    At the low/simple end, you probably want a CPLD rather than
    a FPGA.

    I'm more familiar with Xilinx's products. They make both FPGAs
    and CPLDs. Their on-line store says under $2 for CPLDs and ~$10
    for FPGAs.

    With Xilinx, their low cost parts are Spartan-3 for FPGAs and
    Coolrunner-II for CPLDs.

    Beware. Newer chips won't support older 5V IO signals.


    Most FPGAs need to be reprogrammed at power up. In a stand-alone
    system, that usually means you also need a serial PROM which may
    cost as much as the FPGA. If you have a CPU handy, you can load
    it with a few GPIO pins.

    CPLDs also need to be programmed, but generally only once. With
    modern packages which have tiny pins you don't want to use sockets
    and a stand-alone programmer. Usually, you can program them via JTAG,
    usually a 6 pin connector and a programmer that plugs into the printer
    port.

    The Xilinx Spartan-3 starter kit is $100. It's actually made
    by Digilent - http://www.digilentinc.com/
    If you are interested in FPGAs, that's a pretty good deal.

    Their Coolrunner-II board is $50. I haven't used it.

    They also offer an inexpensive programming cable for $12.
    http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Cables.cfm
    It's included in the Spartan-3 kit and I assume that's what
    is included in the Coolrunnter kit.

    If you haven't used FPGAs or CPLDs before, getting one of the
    starter kits is probably a good idea. Digilent has lots of
    documentation on the web, including schematics.
     
  11. TRABEM

    TRABEM Guest

    Thanks Keith, I appreciate the intro to this technology.

    I need a 15 Mhz input frequency with divide by 2 to 512 capability
    selectable from front panel switches. It has to be TTL level output.

    I don't need (nor want) any complicated frequency counter, frequency
    display or a any BCD select switches to read out the frequency
    directly. I don't need (nor want) a shaft encoder to change the divide
    by N value or anything like that.

    It is for a local oscillator for a quadrature based zero IF receiver
    which is why I don't want a DDS or a PLL solution.

    Just a line of binary switches (simple DIP switches is the full extent
    of the hardware) I want......nothing fancy.

    The only 'frill' I might like is a second custom divider chain to give
    100 Hhz, 25 Khz and 10 Khz switchable calibration markers, similar to
    the types used in 60/70's vintage receivers before the days of
    accurate frequency counters. But, that's secondary.

    Here's the deal.....

    I can't use the 14 stage cmos ripple counter, it is missing some of
    the outputs, so I have to use a specialty crystal oscillator that has
    a prescaler built in and a 7 stage binary counter (cmos).

    So, that's 2 chips (so far). Next I have to add pull ups and switches
    to control the prescaler in the oscillator and to select which binary
    outputs to gate together to reset the counter as needed to produce the
    desired output frequency.

    A third chip (8 input AND gate) is needed just to gate the desired
    binary counter outputs together, so now I'm up to 3 chips.

    If I can do it all in a single CPLD, that would be much easier,
    especially with fabrication. The size of the CPLD circuit would
    probably be much smaller also.

    The pull ups and the specialty oscillator chip can probably be
    eliminated as well and a single generic oscillator module can be used
    IF I go with the CPLD solution.

    So, there are some very distinct advantages to going with an FPGA type
    chip.

    I'll have a look at the website and see if I can learn anything, but
    it's tough for a non programmer to break into this sort of technology
    when very little is known about it from the start.

    Regards,

    T
     
  12. keith

    keith Guest

    TTL output makes things a little more difficult, but 15MHz should be easy.
    I have no personal experience with the 3.3V Xilinx CoolRunners, but they
    *mught* make it alone, or perhaps with a simple level-shifter. I'd have
    to study the sheets more to say.
    Wasn't suggesting any of the kind (feachur creeps ;-). With 40-48 I/Os,
    you should have enough room for lotsa switches though. ;-)
    Ok, what are your jitter requirements? Duty cycle?
    Easy 'nuff.
    Fechur creeps. ;-) These should be easy enough to make and gate.
    Sounds like a plan to me! Pullups _might_ be an issue. The switches have
    to be powered by something. The CPLD I pointed you to was a 3.3V widget,
    so...
    There are *lots* of advantages.
    I'm no programmer. I'm about as much of a hardware type as you're going
    to find. I refuse to admit that I know how to spell 'C', and
    use assembly (any variety; new ones learned upon request) when I must.
     
  13. TRABEM

    TRABEM Guest

    Thanks Keith,
    The 3.3 v logic 1 will probably be ok driving 5 volt cmos. Keeping the
    frequency down would probably be wise in such a case.
    Not sure about a number. But, the DDS chips have spurs and the PLL's
    have phase noise. The quadrature receiver is capable of very high
    performance and it's much easier to build-hardly any tuned circuits to
    deal with and is much cheaper to build as well.

    So, quartz is still be best when one needs a high quality local
    oscillator. I want to use a quartz crystal with a divide by N to get
    the quartz performance and some minimal frequency agility (at LF
    receive frequencies) by varying the divide by N value.

    It was my hope that starting with a clean quartz oscillator, then
    dividing it down would result in a high quality LO that would be
    similar in performance to the crystal alone and give me some minimal
    frequency agility.

    The receiver I'm looking at is the softrock-40 unit shown

    http://www.amqrp.org/kits/softrock40/index.html

    I plan to convert the receiver to 160 to 190 Khz by dividing down a 30
    Mhz crystal oscillator, which makes the LO easy to build and gives
    good performance in a small package. It does not allow the frequency
    agility of a DDS or a PLL, but I don't need the frequency agility
    anyway.

    The duty cycle is of no concern, I just need an output that goes high
    long enough for the input logic to recognize the transition.

    Regards,

    T
     
  14. Guest

    The 4059 (CD4059, HEF4059) is still available at some places, for
    about USD 3.00. To make it run at 15MHz, it requires a higher supply
    voltage of 10V to 15V, though.

    Martin.
     
  15. Rich Grise

    Rich Grise Guest

    On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:15:43 -0400, keith wrote:
    [TRABEM wrote]
    ....
    I've downloaded Xilinx's "ISE" - I think that stands for "intelligent
    simulation environment" or something like that. It comes with some
    "examples" already done for you:
    Demo design for CoolRunner II demo board
    Sample EDIF Flow project
    Elevator design using incremental design flow
    Heirarchical Schematic project
    Frequence Meter
    XAPP 217: Gold Code Generator
    Bidirectional 4-bit Johnson Counter with Stop Control
    XAPP 211: PN Generator using Virtex SRL Macoro
    Pong game control for 3S200 Demo board
    XAPP 134: SDRAM Controller
    Demo design for Virtex2 Demo Board
    XAPP 258: 511x8 FIFO in Virtex2
    Stopwatch Design for Tutorial

    And you can input schematics, VHDL, Verilog, ABEL and/or EDIF. It
    has some pretty awesome tutorials, too.

    Have Fun!
    Rich
     
  16. keith

    keith Guest

    I threw together a little bit of VHDL this afternoon, but made some
    assumptions (2x clock - 30MHz) to get a 50% duty cycle. I ran it through
    and *old* copy Synplify to get an idea of the timing. With even the old
    SPartanXL and Virtex FPGAs it claims better than 100MHz. I don't buy
    100MHz, but 30 shouldn't be hard at all. I also told it to target some
    *small* (and old) CoolRunner parts. It fit with oodles of space left, but
    I got no usefull speed information (I'm not familliar with the CPLD tools
    and the timing information wasn't where I expected it).

    I haven't simulated it though, so may be off a count. ;-)

    If you'd like a copy of the VHDL (I'd like to simulate it first), let me
    know. It really is simple (20 lines or so). I also have the equivalent
    schematics ("HDL Analyst"), but I'm not quite sure how best to post them.
    I didn't add your markers, but they're easy to drop in.
     
  17. TRABEM

    TRABEM Guest

    Thanks Martin,

    I found a 4059 for about $3. But, the 74HC4059 is much faster
    (although still not quite fast enough) and costs $1.60.

    It's almost fast enough, need it to operate at 30 Mhz, but it's rated
    only for 28 Mhz with a 5 volt supply. Unfortunately, I can't change
    the supply voltage and 30 Mhz is bare minimum for my project.

    I looked for an 74HCT4059 and a 74AC4059, both of which would be fast
    enough, but no one makes them (that I could find). Phillips used to
    make the 74HCT4059, but they have sold out to TI, who doesn't make
    them now.

    Regards,

    T
     
  18. Keith,

    Twenty lines or so can be placed in the group as well. I'm also interested
    in this kind of stuff and I guess I'm not the only one.

    petrus bitbyter
     
  19. I lied. It's 41 lines with all the necessary fluff. ;-) I'll post the
    VHDL later today (I'd like a chance to simulate and format it for the
    narrow screen). Some of the other files are graphics (print to
    PDFs). Those are interesting too and I'm not sure where to put 'em.
     
  20. Keith,

    Can you place it in alt.binaries.schematics.electronics? Otherwise I can
    place it somewhere for some time. You can reach me by e-mail when you leave
    out the obvious in my address. That's to say obvious in Dutch.
    Laatditwegenditook translates Leavethisoutandthistoo.

    petrus bitbyter
     
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