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FPM

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am very new to the solar and I had a BP guy come by and give me an
estimate. I asked that I did not want to be off-grid totally but I like to
have power when there is black out. He said I have to have a propane powered
generator, because regulation will not allow it. I know there has to be a
way without generator or batteries. Any help is appreciated.

From Sunny CA- Frank
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
FPM said:
I like to
have power when there is black out.
I know there has to be a
way without generator or batteries.

I don't think that means what you think it means. Solar power systems
cannot work without some kind of storage (where grid-tie counts as a
battery of infinite size). In fact, solar panels "grid-tied" to a
generator is probably a really bad idea...
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joe Fischer said:
panels will not be obtainable without a waiting list, but grid-charged
battery systems should be readily available because they can be

Yeah, this is the Giant UPS model, and has a lot to reccomend it. I'm
considering replacing my (lessee) four APC BackUPS Pro 650(*)s with
maybe a 3KW Xantrex and a small battery bank to tide me over till the
generator cranks up. Anyone know if there's a "shut the computers
down when the batteries are nearly exhausted" option on any of the big
inverter/chargers?

(*) They cheat on the ratings, it may claim to be 650W, but at around
60% of the load rating of the inverter, they complain about dischared
batteries, which means "not enough time to shut down gracefully".
Pleh.
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joey said:
maybe cause they don't claim 650 watts. it's 650VA which would equate
to around 465W.

Doesn't matter, the point is that around 60 precent load (using their
network tools to report percent load), the silly box doesn't have
enough backup time (2 minutes?) to safely shut the computers down, so
it starts complaining about low battery, though the battery is fully
charged.

Again, Pleh. I want a Giant UPS built from a decent Trace/Xantrex
inverter/charger and a few AGM batteries. [Does this combination play
well together?]
 
B

Bruce in Alaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
William P.N. Smith said:
Joey said:
maybe cause they don't claim 650 watts. it's 650VA which would equate
to around 465W.

Doesn't matter, the point is that around 60 precent load (using their
network tools to report percent load), the silly box doesn't have
enough backup time (2 minutes?) to safely shut the computers down, so
it starts complaining about low battery, though the battery is fully
charged.

Again, Pleh. I want a Giant UPS built from a decent Trace/Xantrex
inverter/charger and a few AGM batteries. [Does this combination play
well together?]

Hi Bill,
I use a Trace 2624 running off a 800amp/hr bank of Absolyte II AGM's
to Power my ISP Headend systmes. We only run the genset 10 Hours a day,
so the Trace Powers the ISP systems the rest of the time and then
recharges the batteries while the genset is running.....


Bruce in alaska www.99850.net
 
W

William P.N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joe Fischer said:
I want a Giant UPS built from a decent Trace/Xantrex
inverter/charger and a few AGM batteries. [Does this combination play
well together?]
If it is just for computers maybe a 12 volt power supply
would help pave the way toward PV later on.

Yeah, though 12V-input PC supplies are available, they cost _way_ more
than 120V supplies plus inverters, and I'd like to run everything
(printers, ethernet switches, router, DSL modem, etc).

While I do have a couple of 12V batteries floatcharging around the
house (ham radio has 50AH of Gates Cyclon, bedroom reading lights have
5AH Cyclon, and generator has a small Gates Genesis starting battery),
I'd like to consolidate everything near the breaker panel and convert
the computer circuits over to a Giant UPS (TM). If I only need (say)
5-10 minutes at 3KW (the generator fires itself up in around 5
seconds, but I'd like some margin), can I just get (say) 500 watthours
(50AH at 12V?) of AGM battery (*) and hook them up to a Trace/Xantrex
{ProSine, SW?}, or will they beat 'small' battery banks to death?

(*) Are the Hawker (nee Gates) Cyclon/Genesis batteries well thought
of?

Thanks!
 
B

Bill Kaszeta / Photovoltaic Resources

Jan 1, 1970
0
--- clipped ----

Again, Pleh. I want a Giant UPS built from a decent Trace/Xantrex
inverter/charger and a few AGM batteries. [Does this combination play
well together?]
From the Xantrex SW series II manual:

IN BRIEF
SW Series Inverter/Chargers provide an excellent utility system backup
under the majority of powering applications. Whenever a shorted grid
condition affects voltage or frequency, the inverter disconnects itself
from the grid and continues to support the AC load using battery power.
Typical transfer time under a shorted grid condition is instantaneous.

Depending upon the type and amount of load, the transfer may, at times,
be noticeable. This is due to the inverter's output reaching the overcurrent
trip level as it tries to maintain the load before the internal relay transfers
to battery power.
--- end of quote ---

The transfer will be very noticable when the grid fails. There is little to no
disturbance when the grid returns. Most computers are not affected by
the short disturbance.

There is a similar disturbance, but for other reasons, when the Xantrex
UX series with built-in battery charger is used as an UPS. In this case
there is also a disturbance when the grid returns. However, I have had
good luck using a UX with a 100AH AGN battery (GNB Sunlyte 12-5000X)
for backing up a computer used for data acquisition.
Bill Kaszeta
Photovoltaic Resources Int'l
Tempe Arizona USA
[email protected]
 
D

Dale Farmer

Jan 1, 1970
0
"William P.N. Smith
Joe Fischer said:
I want a Giant UPS built from a decent Trace/Xantrex
inverter/charger and a few AGM batteries. [Does this combination play
well together?]
If it is just for computers maybe a 12 volt power supply
would help pave the way toward PV later on.

Yeah, though 12V-input PC supplies are available, they cost _way_ more
than 120V supplies plus inverters, and I'd like to run everything
(printers, ethernet switches, router, DSL modem, etc).

While I do have a couple of 12V batteries floatcharging around the
house (ham radio has 50AH of Gates Cyclon, bedroom reading lights have
5AH Cyclon, and generator has a small Gates Genesis starting battery),
I'd like to consolidate everything near the breaker panel and convert
the computer circuits over to a Giant UPS (TM). If I only need (say)
5-10 minutes at 3KW (the generator fires itself up in around 5
seconds, but I'd like some margin), can I just get (say) 500 watthours
(50AH at 12V?) of AGM battery (*) and hook them up to a Trace/Xantrex
{ProSine, SW?}, or will they beat 'small' battery banks to death?

(*) Are the Hawker (nee Gates) Cyclon/Genesis batteries well thought
of?

For computer UPSs, if you are not constrained by space, the lowest cost
method is lots of just the right sized UPSs for each individual load rather
than
one big honking UPS for the whole room.
If you are running on inverters or generators, you will have issues, as
UPSs
have switching power supplies, which bollix up some generators under some
load conditions. If your generator is also running a bunch of lights, and
the
computer room HVAC system, then the UPS load is swamped by the
conventional loads. The key words are power factor and switching power
supplies.

--Dale
 
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