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diode for collapsing magnetic field

Discussion in 'General Electronics Discussion' started by Blank Stare, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. The Electrician

    The Electrician

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    Jul 6, 2012
    [​IMG]

    Ask, and ye shall receive.

    Edit: I should mention that with only the RC snubber, sparking is still present at the relay contacts; with the diode also connected, I see no sparking.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  2. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

    25,496
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    Jan 21, 2010
    Very cool.

    I note that it has a vertical resolution of 100 V/div

    edit: Yes, I expect that the arcing may be shorter though
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  3. The Electrician

    The Electrician

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    Jul 6, 2012
    Yes, it was. With nothing to suppress the arc, it was substantial--quite a bit of fire, spread over the full diameter of the contacts! With only the RC snubber, the arc was much reduced, a less fat arc, but still present.
     
  4. CocaCola

    CocaCola

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    Apr 7, 2012
    I second that, those pictures are worth a 1000 words each, probably more...
     
  5. CocaCola

    CocaCola

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    On the same note, may I suggest that possibly those images as well as some other relevant content in this thread, (the thread itself is kinda long and full of fluff) be copy and pasted into a new 'promote a post' and/or simple tutorial thread about snubbers and/or flyback diodes...
     
  6. Blank Stare

    Blank Stare

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    Oct 10, 2012
    Arrived in yesterday's mail - of course it's raining today...busy tomorrow - hopefully can do install before the weekend.

    Thanks.
     
  7. Blank Stare

    Blank Stare

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    Oct 10, 2012
    It never occurred to me that anything more than what I offered was needed. Wish I had the original specs. I suspect they may have upgraded that fuse, since I bought mine...I also based my choice of relay on the size of the fuse they included. Then again, a 50 amp relay, AND a lawn tractor solenoid were both fried in short order.

    What test equipment would I need? I have a multi-meter, but not a scope.

    When I cut the top of the relay off, is the top the side directly opposite the leads? I can do that...

    And I will save anymore failed relays, especially the ones that fail in the closed position.
     
  8. Blank Stare

    Blank Stare

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    Oct 10, 2012
    The rocker switch is ALWAYS in the on position. I do not operate the pump pump manually.

    Dunno if that makes a difference?
     
  9. Blank Stare

    Blank Stare

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    Oct 10, 2012
    I wish I knew how to do a test like that - much less have access to the equipment to make the test. I'll try to figure how how purchase the parts you suggest. When I have them in hand, and if I have questions about the install, should I open a new thread, or continue this one?

    Could you tell me, in "dumb speak" where and what orientation to install the capacitor? A diagram would prove more useful that any other form of instruction, since I am clearly in over my head, now.

    Mainly, which orientation of the capacitor, in relation to the diode...
    • series?
    • parallel?
    • reversed to each other in series?
    • which end to which connector on the relay?
    • some other configuration that is beyond my ken?

    BTW, sorry for the exceedingly long thread. I suppose you folks are used to dealing with people that have a "bit" (LOL) more training than I do.

    Every reply you have made has been somewhat educational.

    I don't expect to be designing circuit boards, ever, but it's amazing what one can learn, just following along with people that know what the dickens they are talking about.

    I really do appreciate your help.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  10. The Electrician

    The Electrician

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    Jul 6, 2012
    I was wishing you had a scope. :D

    Yes, cut the "box" part away from the leads.

    I sent you a PM (Private Message). At the very top right of the page you'll see "Private Messages". It should say "Unread 1" now that I've sent you one. Just click on it and you can also reply on the page where you're reading the message.
     
  11. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    May 8, 2012
    My only point was that the manufacturer expected that switch to survive without BEMF protection.

    Electrician's supression scheme looks like this. His current wasn't 20 - 30A though. The value of snubber C1 and R1 changes with current draw.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    The nature of PMs are, of course, private but the purpose of this forum isn't. This forum is devoted to sharing knowledge. PM's regarding the topic is the antithesis of this.

    I can't speak for everyone else involved in this thread, but speaking for myself I would not be happy if this thread disappeared into PM land. Far to much time has been devoted here to have it end with only the two of you knowing the end result.

    Chris
     
  13. The Electrician

    The Electrician

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    Jul 6, 2012
    The purpose of my PM is not necessarily going to terminate this thread. I simply offered to mail the necessary parts to Blank Stare, and if he wants to accept my offer he will need to give me his mailing address--hence the need for privacy. I, probably like you, have a lot of parts accumulated over a lifetime as an EE. It seems a shame not to just decrease my basement full of parts by 3 and help out Blank Stare for the price of a stamp.

    But, in truth, it will be up to Blank Stare whether he shares the result of applying the parts to his problem. I hope he does, because I have myself been disappointed in the past on various electronic fora when someone that gets help doesn't come back to tell those who helped him what the outcome was.
     
  14. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    I was only concerned with keeping the technical data within the thread. It would be like watching a 3 hr movie on the Sat only to loose the last 15 minutes to thunderstorm fade. ;)

    Chris
     
  15. The Electrician

    The Electrician

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    Jul 6, 2012
    Like I said, if that happens it will be up to Blank Stare, not me.

    What's going to happen is that if Blank Stare does add the suppression network, and if he does find that the arc is eliminated, we still won't know if the arcing is the reason for relay failure for some time, maybe weeks or even months. He may forget about us in that time. And, even if he doesn't forget about us, how will he know when to consider the problem solved?

    We can hope that he will check back after an appropriate period of time.
     
  16. Blank Stare

    Blank Stare

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    I would consider it rude, in the extreme, not to give back what little I can, by sharing the results of YOUR (all of you) hard work, and mental exercises. ;)

    I ALWAYS return to thank people in the various forums which I have visited. From circuits, to spreadsheet programming, to virus removal, and more. In this case, I am likely to visit several times over the coming months to update you on the status of the system...especially if the modifications do not solve the problem. :rolleyes:

    That being said, I have accepted your generous offer, to send me some spare parts that you have. I have to admit, that despite the small intrinsic value of those parts, I am stunned, and grateful for this favor. In my case, just figuring out what to order is nearly as big a deal as understanding how to use them. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. :D

    CDRIVE - Whether the problem is finally resolved by discussions on this forum, or from some other source, you WILL get the information. It's the least I can do for all your patience, understanding, and assistance.

    I have another message that I am drafting, but I want to make sure that I am asking the right questions, regarding the install process. Once I get finished with the things I am SURE of, I'll ask questions about the parts I am NOT sure about.

    I suspect that most of the questions will answer themselves, once I get my soldering gun hot.

    Anyway - here goes nothing...hope I don't blister my fingers!! :eek:
     
  17. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    I wish you the best of luck and look forward to hearing the results.

    Chris
     
  18. Blank Stare

    Blank Stare

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    Oct 10, 2012
    Did my best to map out the system yesterday.

    Someone asked about wire gauges.

    Some of the wire gauges were difficult to tell, as most did not have any markings on them. So when in doubt, I assumed the smaller gauge.

    In the case of the main power feed to the relay, I may want to replace it. I think the feed to the pump from the relay might be 10 awg, whereas the feed from the battery (fuse) to the relay looks to be 12 awg. Then again, I don't think it's been a problem.

    What do you folks think?

    Nice day here. I am about to head outside, and start tapping the diodes and zener into the system. If it all goes smoothly, I be back shortly to report "no problems". If I break something, I come back, and throw some dishes around the kitchen ;)

    Here's what I think I have. The components in the drawing are marked with very small font, so I suggest enlarging the image, if you need to compare something with the list.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Blank Stare

    Blank Stare

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    Oct 10, 2012
    Grrrr :mad:

    Where's the kitchen?

    I tested the system to be sure I was making changes to a working system, before I started.

    Then I made the changes.

    No pump activation after the changes.

    Relay clicks when power switch is closed.

    It also wouldn't come on after I put it all back the way it was.

    Relay still clicks when power switch is closed.

    LED #4 is blinking when the system power switch is activated - That means I have power from the relay to the pump...I think that points to a bad ground at the Pump / Diode from hell.

    Almost dark here, too dark to see down under the hood.

    Tomorrow I will chase the ground wires, and hopefully get the original configuration working, before I do the upgrade again.

    In the meantime, better hide the good china ;)
     
  20. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

    4,960
    652
    May 8, 2012
    Measure the voltage from ground to the pump + with the relay activated. If it doesn't measure 12V then measure from ground to node #86, which is the input contact of the relay. If it measures 12V then the relay contacts or the internal wires to the contacts are toast.
    If those measurements test OK then measure from ground to the neg (-) terminal of the pump. At this point you're measuring across a wire so it should read near zero V. If it doesn't you've lost the ground connection to the pump.

    Chris
     
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