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Dimmers - Rip off

T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I purchased a few dimmers last week, at Turks. I get a 22% discount at my
local store, which I understand is pretty close to regular wholesale prices
charged to contractors. I purchased three different, Clipsal (450W) dimmers:

* Orange - Fan speed controller type.
* Green - Trailing edge type, for electronic transformer halogens.
* Blue - Leading edge type, for standard incandescent.

All are encased in transparent plastic cases and make extensive use of
surface mount technology. I didn't take note of the country of manufacture,
but:

1) It was probably China.
2) It probably doesn't matter all that much, given the level of robotics
used in SM stuff.
3) Labour costs in manufacture would be minimal.

Anyway, I haven't purchased a dimmer in nearly 20 years, but I'm pretty
certain that they cost me less than $20.00 way back then. Imaine my surprise
when I had to fork out $44.00, $43.00 and $33.00 respectively, for what is
around $2.00 in materials. What gives? Why are these things so damned
expensive? Hell, I bought a 5 disk, carousel CD player on Friday for $59.00
from K-Mart and it is considerably more elaborate than any dimmer.
 
A

atec77

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trevor said:
I purchased a few dimmers last week, at Turks. I get a 22% discount at my
local store, which I understand is pretty close to regular wholesale prices
charged to contractors. I purchased three different, Clipsal (450W) dimmers:

* Orange - Fan speed controller type.
* Green - Trailing edge type, for electronic transformer halogens.
* Blue - Leading edge type, for standard incandescent.

All are encased in transparent plastic cases and make extensive use of
surface mount technology. I didn't take note of the country of manufacture,
but:

1) It was probably China.
2) It probably doesn't matter all that much, given the level of robotics
used in SM stuff.
3) Labour costs in manufacture would be minimal.

Anyway, I haven't purchased a dimmer in nearly 20 years, but I'm pretty
certain that they cost me less than $20.00 way back then. Imaine my surprise
when I had to fork out $44.00, $43.00 and $33.00 respectively, for what is
around $2.00 in materials. What gives? Why are these things so damned
expensive? Hell, I bought a 5 disk, carousel CD player on Friday for $59.00
from K-Mart and it is considerably more elaborate than any dimmer.
How do you like paying retail ?
my price is a little better .(29 , 27 , 24 )
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
atec77 said:
How do you like paying retail ?
my price is a little better .(29 , 27 , 24 )

**I don't. I'll be chatting to Turks later today. According to the
paperwork, I get a 22% discount. I also paid $105.00 for 2.5mm twin and
earth. How does that compare?
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
I purchased a few dimmers last week, at Turks. I get a 22% discount at my
local store, which I understand is pretty close to regular wholesale prices
charged to contractors. I purchased three different, Clipsal (450W) dimmers:

* Orange - Fan speed controller type.
* Green - Trailing edge type, for electronic transformer halogens.
* Blue - Leading edge type, for standard incandescent.

All are encased in transparent plastic cases and make extensive use of
surface mount technology. I didn't take note of the country of manufacture,
but:

1) It was probably China.
2) It probably doesn't matter all that much, given the level of robotics
used in SM stuff.
3) Labour costs in manufacture would be minimal.

Anyway, I haven't purchased a dimmer in nearly 20 years, but I'm pretty
certain that they cost me less than $20.00 way back then. Imaine my surprise
when I had to fork out $44.00, $43.00 and $33.00 respectively, for what is
around $2.00 in materials. What gives? Why are these things so damned
expensive? Hell, I bought a 5 disk, carousel CD player on Friday for $59.00
from K-Mart and it is considerably more elaborate than any dimmer.


Hi Trevor,

It is a few years since I bought a few halogen lamp dimmers and I
can't recall what I paid. However, I checked the Clipsal trade
catalogue for 2002 and here is the pricing for standard wall mounting
dimmers at the time;

250V, 400VA low voltage, $39.04 trade price + gst each
250V, 400VA incandescent, $37.59 trade price + gst each

Sweep fan controllers were about the same price.

500VA and 600VA units were appreciably higher at over $60 each trade +
gst.

I doubt that their pricing has dropped since then so perhaps you got a
good deal.

Ross H
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Trevor Wilson"
I purchased a few dimmers last week, at Turks. I get a 22% discount at my
local store, which I understand is pretty close to regular wholesale prices
charged to contractors. I purchased three different, Clipsal (450W)
dimmers:

* Orange - Fan speed controller type.
* Green - Trailing edge type, for electronic transformer halogens.
* Blue - Leading edge type, for standard incandescent.

All are encased in transparent plastic cases and make extensive use of
surface mount technology. I didn't take note of the country of
manufacture, but:

1) It was probably China.


** Don't be so sure - it may well be made in Australia.

The Atco " Possum" series of electronic 12 volt halogen transformers is and
very nicely too.

http://www.lightshop.com.au/transformers.asp


Altronics sell the 60 watt model for $22.50.




........ Phil
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Trevor Wilson"


** Don't be so sure - it may well be made in Australia.

The Atco " Possum" series of electronic 12 volt halogen transformers is
and very nicely too.

http://www.lightshop.com.au/transformers.asp


Altronics sell the 60 watt model for $22.50.

**They're the ones I use. Compton package them with a 50 watt lamp + gimbal
mount. I bought mine (the complete package) from Turks for 13 Bucks apiece.
I haven't measured them yet, but I reckon I'm saving at least 15 Watts over
the old magnetic trannies. This is another example of why I reckon that
dimmers are a rip off.
 
B

Blutt

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trevor Wilson said:
I purchased a few dimmers last week, at Turks. I get a 22% discount at my
local store, which I understand is pretty close to regular wholesale prices
charged to contractors. I purchased three different, Clipsal (450W)
dimmers:

* Orange - Fan speed controller type.
* Green - Trailing edge type, for electronic transformer halogens.
* Blue - Leading edge type, for standard incandescent.

All are encased in transparent plastic cases and make extensive use of
surface mount technology. I didn't take note of the country of
manufacture, but:

1) It was probably China.
2) It probably doesn't matter all that much, given the level of robotics
used in SM stuff.
3) Labour costs in manufacture would be minimal.

Anyway, I haven't purchased a dimmer in nearly 20 years, but I'm pretty
certain that they cost me less than $20.00 way back then. Imaine my
surprise when I had to fork out $44.00, $43.00 and $33.00 respectively,
for what is around $2.00 in materials. What gives? Why are these things so
damned expensive? Hell, I bought a 5 disk, carousel CD player on Friday
for $59.00 from K-Mart and it is considerably more elaborate than any
dimmer.
22% off what? At the prices quoted that is 22% off retail PLUS appx 10%

Hint: Don't buy from the big wholesalers, Turks TLE etc.
Try Gemcell group.
 
C

Clifford Heath

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trevor said:
This is another example of why I reckon that dimmers are a rip off.

We renovated in 2000 and I bitched about the price of dimmers
then, and was told at L&H "the old dimmers caused too many EMI
problems and had to be completely re-designed subject to new
regulations". It seems possible that regulation was used as an
excuse, because they couldn't just use the cheapo imports they'd
been palming off onto us and had to actually do some *work* for
a living (by designing a quality product) so they wanted to get
their money back - which they've certainly now done, and then
some :).

From a point of complete ignorance about what standards and
regulation actually apply, in this case it would seem best if
Australia had just adopted whatever most stringent standards
apply in a large global market - maybe Europe? - and then the
local suppliers wouldn't have to get off their butts, except
perhaps for packaging reasons. Either way, it's clear that
inappropriate regulation is often a reason, or an excuse, for
raising prices beyond what's justifiable.
 
A

atec77

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trevor said:
**I don't. I'll be chatting to Turks later today. According to the
paperwork, I get a 22% discount. I also paid $105.00 for 2.5mm twin and
earth. How does that compare?
you could do a little better , I buy mine in Brisbane from some guys in
Salisbury on Orange grove Rd , best prices on switch there is , lousy
and hungrys are a little cheaper than your price , did you know the buzz
here is Turks are closing branches.
 
M

me

Jan 1, 1970
0
**I don't. I'll be chatting to Turks later today. According to the
paperwork, I get a 22% discount. I also paid $105.00 for 2.5mm twin and
earth. How does that compare?
for the average customer probably ok. I got some the other day, $61.60 incl
GST.

There are retail prices, trade prices and discounts on trade prices.
 
P

Poxy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trevor Wilson said:
news:44838fbb$0$17544$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...

**I don't. I'll be chatting to Turks later today. According to the
paperwork, I get a 22% discount. I also paid $105.00 for 2.5mm twin and
earth. How does that compare?

I've got one of their "Turk Cards" which is meant to be a
non-account-holding trade card, which, frankly, a dead rat can get (provided
it has an ABN) - same as a Jaycar Trade Card, except their trade discounts
are much lamer, or their markups aren't as criminal, I'm not sure.

Anyway, I've found the discounts from the Trade Card tend to vary depending
on the item, but the best thing that happened to me is the guy I usually
deal with saw me in my truck dragging a fucking great, mean-looking trench
digger, which from that point onwards gave me utterly undeserved, but
financially quite rewarding, kudos.The guys at the counter, while doing all
that typing, can dial in whatever discount they like, to whomever they like.

So I make sure I do a pretty good stand-up routine every time I go in there,
act like I'm his best mate, drop the odd line about the (non-existent) wife
spending all my hard-earned cash and then failing to make it up in bed etc.
And I get much better prices, and furthermore, you can actually bargain on
expensive items because they do have the latitude to move on the discount.

My advice: listen in on some tradie-talk and use it to your advantage.
 
B

Blutt

Jan 1, 1970
0
me said:
for the average customer probably ok. I got some the other day, $61.60
incl GST.

There are retail prices, trade prices and discounts on trade prices.

Get some more at that price.
Copper has just gone through the roof about a 350% hike
7/067 T&E cost me $78 today up from $55 about 2 weeks ago :-(
 
A

atec77

Jan 1, 1970
0
Blutt said:
Get some more at that price.
Copper has just gone through the roof about a 350% hike
7/067 T&E cost me $78 today up from $55 about 2 weeks ago :-(
I bought a pallet this morning of two pair twisted , its going up around
4% a week...
RG6 quad was $97 plus tax two months ago 300 m roll, now it scares me
 
G

Geoff C

Jan 1, 1970
0
We renovated in 2000 and I bitched about the price of dimmers
then, and was told at L&H "the old dimmers caused too many EMI
problems and had to be completely re-designed subject to new
regulations". It seems possible that regulation was used as an
excuse, because they couldn't just use the cheapo imports they'd
been palming off onto us and had to actually do some *work* for
a living (by designing a quality product) so they wanted to get
their money back - which they've certainly now done, and then
some :).

From a point of complete ignorance about what standards and
regulation actually apply, in this case it would seem best if
Australia had just adopted whatever most stringent standards
apply in a large global market - maybe Europe? - and then the
local suppliers wouldn't have to get off their butts, except
perhaps for packaging reasons. Either way, it's clear that
inappropriate regulation is often a reason, or an excuse, for
raising prices beyond what's justifiable.

The Australian EMC standards are based on CISPR and IEC standards and are
generally exactly the same technical limits as EU standards, with a
different and more anal compliance regime, that's all.

The R&D for a compliant dimmer I don't think will be difficult at all. I
don't know if the modern ones are still phase controlled. I designed a
filter addition to a 12kW single phase SCR a few years back, and got it to
pass Class B so it ain't hard.
 
C

Clifford Heath

Jan 1, 1970
0
Geoff said:
The Australian EMC standards are based on CISPR and IEC standards...
The R&D for a compliant dimmer I don't think will be difficult at all.

In other words, the regulation *was* just a pretext. Figures.
 
A

atec77

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jasen said:
some RG6 quad is all steel and aluminium, unless you count the thin
plating on the centre conductor.

Bye.
Jasen
Ah you mean the cheap stuff at dicks , I use copper core quality as much
of it is used around 2 gig
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes that surely is a rip-off. If you look on the UK Farnell website, the
cheapest 400W ones cost £6.31 + 17.5% VAT, delivery would be free in the UK
so the total would be about AU$18.56, and I'm sure there are cheaper places
than Farnell. It's a pity that the Australian Farnell doesn't stock any.
I bet that the safety / EMC standards in Australia are not more difficult
to meet, though probably different. It is possible that the Australian
ones are more tolerant of lightning, though I doubt that because they seem
to fail without much provocation. The screw holes are probably in
different places on the UK ones.

Chris


The Farnell units are for UK style wall boxes so they wouldn't fit
directly into ours. The range of dimmers they have are shown here
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp?Ntt=lamp+dimmer&Nty=1&N=411&Ntk=gensearch

(watch for line wrap)

You will notice that while some units are quite cheap the 375W low
voltage units are at more expensive than ours. ie. UKP31.54 = AUD79.23
currently.

Also, CPC Farnell in the UK are quite happy to ship at very reasonable
rates to Australia if you want anything from them. I recently bought
some items from them and their service was excellent.

Ross H
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Jan 1, 1970
0
I purchased a few dimmers last week, at Turks. I get a 22% discount at my
local store, which I understand is pretty close to regular wholesale prices
charged to contractors. I purchased three different, Clipsal (450W) dimmers:

* Orange - Fan speed controller type.
* Green - Trailing edge type, for electronic transformer halogens.
* Blue - Leading edge type, for standard incandescent.

All are encased in transparent plastic cases and make extensive use of
surface mount technology. I didn't take note of the country of manufacture,
but:

1) It was probably China.
2) It probably doesn't matter all that much, given the level of robotics
used in SM stuff.
3) Labour costs in manufacture would be minimal.

Anyway, I haven't purchased a dimmer in nearly 20 years, but I'm pretty
certain that they cost me less than $20.00 way back then. Imaine my surprise
when I had to fork out $44.00, $43.00 and $33.00 respectively, for what is
around $2.00 in materials. What gives? Why are these things so damned
expensive? Hell, I bought a 5 disk, carousel CD player on Friday for $59.00
from K-Mart and it is considerably more elaborate than any dimmer.

Agreed, it's a rip-off. The last dimmer I purchased was from KMart
some 10 years ago. At that time they were costing $10 retail.
Admittedly they were crap quality (I had to return one due to a faulty
pot), but the "good" ones are still working today. Looking inside,
there wasn't much more to the units than a pot and a triac. The triac
was "attached" to its heatsink by the surface tension of thermal
grease, ie there were no fasteners. IIRC, the devices were
made/imported by GAF Controls.

My other beef is in regard to power boards. I still can't find a
reasonably priced power board with individually switched outlets, at
least not at retail. WES sell a 6-way board for $25 (3-way if you use
AC adapters), but the same item at KMart costs $50.

- Franc Zabkar
 
M

Mark Harriss

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chris said:
Ross Herbert wrote:




A few years ago the UK branch used to refuse to deliver things to my
Australian address which were also available in their Australian catalogue.
(I was trying to get some expensive surface mount ICs from Farnell UK
because it was about half the price.) I had to get someone in the UK to
buy the parts instead.

Chris


I was after some $2 IGBT's listed in their catalogue, they admitted that
no, they didn't really keep them in stock even though they said they
did and yes they could get them if I wanted to pay an extra $40 "freight
surcharge" and then added they were going to buy them off "Mouser in the
States".
 
R

Ross Herbert

Jan 1, 1970
0
SNIP
I was after some $2 IGBT's listed in their catalogue, they admitted that
no, they didn't really keep them in stock even though they said they
did and yes they could get them if I wanted to pay an extra $40 "freight
surcharge" and then added they were going to buy them off "Mouser in the
States".


CPC (Combined Precision Components) is a separate division of Farnell
Premier and they seem to operate as a separate entity from Farnell
On-line.

The parts I ordered came in a padded envelope and each item was in its
own sealed bag at an all up cost of UKP22.20 including the freight
charge of UKP7.50. At this rate they don't seem to be trying to make a
profit on the post and packaging side of the sale.

I can't say if they have the same catalogue of items as FArnell but I
would certainly give them a try if you want something you see in the
Farnell product range. It can't hurt to send them an email and ask for
pricing.

Ross H
 
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