Difference between digital phone and VOIP

[Robert L Bass]

I don't think we need to worry about VOIP

becoming the "de facto" of the major
providers until that technology IS reliable.

We disagree on two fronts here. First, I've
worked in the telecomm industry and never
saw anything indicating a concern for
reliability. If it can be sold at a better margin
they'll go for it every time. Second, I'm not
at all worried. From my POV the move to
VoIP is a major plus. Of course, the fact
that I don't sell monitoring has a lot to do
with that. :^)

The big backbone providers (Ma Bell and
family) can't afford to dump everyone over
to a new technology until it's achieved a
certain level of reliability...

They're already beginning to do it, whether
the customers know it or not. (cf: my reference
to long distance carriers earlier). They are
also offering all sorts of package deals to lure
customers away from analog.

I dunno about the US, but up here, if reliability
levels aren't government-mandated, they're
certainly government-encouraged...

This is the USA with Dubya at the helm. Forget
about standards, QOS, reliablility, etc. The
only issue is whether they made a sufficient
deposit in Shrub National Bank.

Telus, for example, couldn't just start pulling
up landlines and pushing everyone onto VOIP...

Same here. Instead they offer loss leader pricing
to get vict... er, customers to sign up for the service.

... the public outcry would force all levels of
government to intervene.

There's the difference. This is America Under The
Shrub! The current government turns a deaf ear
to the will of the people. In fact, our National Idiot
actually believes that he is in the White House
*despite* losing the popular vote by over half a
million votes because *God* put him there. He
cites the Biblical Passage in Mark 5:21-43 to
explain why it's OK for him to ignore the will of
the people concerning little matters like Gulf War II,
the economy, the ecology of the earth, etc.

Ah, but I digress. At any rate, VoIP is coming and
it's a much bigger wave than we might like to think.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Jim]

Only in a cursury fashion to be quite honest. I am working closely
with a small development company in the process of designing an IP
communication unit called Lobenn. At the moment, they are going
through the lengthy process of getting ULC approval. I am one of
several alarm companies they interface with for information, trialing
equipment, and (in my case) the loan of alarm panels.

It would appear to be a decent unit; however, it will require a
specialized receiver at the station to transfer signals to the regular
receivers, so this may turn out to be somewhat of a "chicken and egg"
scenario. Big stations don't move too quickly, so it remains to be
seen about the "buyin".

I'm taking a "wait and see" approach to this whole thing, since I
don't want or need technical problems of that nature haunting me and
my clients.

RHC

Robert I'm going to give you a little help here

The Lobenn unit will not allow you to down load. It also has some
other inconsistancies which I cant remember what they are right now. I
tested their unit some time ago and rejected it. They were telling me
a year ago that they were going to fix all the problems and were
seeking listing on the product and to this day, they haven't. They are
a very small and new company and personally, I would not invest any
time or effort in their product.

I havent used it yet but I understand that DSC has an internet/
wireless communicator that seems more like what the industry is
looking for. Only time will tell, of course. Although their receivers
are top of the line, and popular with central stations, unfortunately,
DSC is fighting an up hill battle, reputation wise, in the realm of
installing companies.

Napco has a unit too.

Here's another little tidbit. The new Ademco GSM radio, is a ......
get this now ..... a 9 volt unit and can't be powered from the control
panel. How about THAT for engineering for the alarm industry?

 

[Robert L Bass]

This is because VoIP needs a constant stream of

data to carry the audio data...

Well, sort of. By definition, packetization implies
a series of bursts -- not a steady stream. However,
in an ideal situation the steady series of bursts seems
like a constant stream.

The voice data is chopped into "packets", each

packet holding maybe 50-100ms worth of audio...

ISTR it's more like 10-30 mSecs of audio per packet.

If some of those packets get lost, the system tries
to "guess" what should have been there...

There are two commonly used methods of dealing with
packet loss. One is to insert noise which sounds like
human speach over the phone. This tricks the brain
into hearing it as steady sound.

Another technique is called redundancy. It is exactly
what it sounds like. Packets are sent several times
in case one gets lost. If a few packets are lost the
system still has another packet to read.

A more advanced method is called FEC. This
technique includes partial audio data from one packet
in subsequent packets. When a packet is lost, a
mathematical algorithm calculates what the missing
data was from information in the adjoining packets.
This might be what some refer to as "guessing" since
the algorithm is not perfect. For human speach it's
more than adequate.

For critical alarm data we need 100% acuracy. With
various means of dealing with packet loss, it's possible
to be accurate enough to approximate POTS. IMO
the real issue for most is down time. No Internet =
no reporting.

and that actually works pretty good. The human
brain also has a tendency to fill in the gaps so
most people don't even hear a few lost packets.
A control panel modem is not as forgiving.
Agreed.

You can get a feeling for how many "hops" you
have between yourself and a destination by
opening a command prompt and typing:
tracert www.google.com (or whatever destination).

There are two sides to that coin. Since Google.com
is the busiest site in the galaxy I ran tracert andd then
pinged it. It took 9 hops and 89 mSec to get from my
PC to Google. That's less than the number of switches
I'd have hit and about 135 times faster than alarm
dialup (avg. 12 seconds). If I were transmitting a
couple of rounds of alarm data I'd have finished the
entire transaction before the alarm panel finished
dialing a phone number. Of course, the comparison
isn't entirely fair since we're discussing VoIP which
still uses the telco analog network.

Like someone else wrote in this thread, the voice
streams share the same bandwidth as all other data
on the Internet.

That is true. The reality is that in a short time *all*
voice comms will be via Internet. The question is how
to deal with it, not whether it is a good thing.

Thus it may appear as the bundled VoIP works
better than for example Vonage.

I'll let you know after I've had more time to test it. I
just installed VIOS for some of my lines plus TV and
Internet.

So the bottom line is that VoIP is designed for
VOICE. Not the bleeps and burps a control panel
spits out when it communicates.

That is 100% true. This is not lost on the alarm
manufacturing industry. As VoIP becomes more
uniquitous, expect to see more and more alarm
systems with Internet connectivity built-in or at
least offered as an add-on.

A panel designed for networking, bypassing the
VoIP modem, will work a whole lot better than
one using VoIP as a POTS replacement...

Agreed. However, there are many millions of
existing systems which currently use POTS and
will soon be sitting behind VoIP. I expect we'll also
see plenty of Alarm-Internet "dialers" offered to
fill the coming market niche. This would be
a great opportunity for that Loxxon character. :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[tourman]

Mark, I would be very surprised if the Lobenn unit caused any grief in
regards to upload / download capabilities. I remember several years
ago in my initial meetings with these folks, that was identified as
one of the priorities from the alarmco perspective right from day one.
They had indicated their goal was to make it a totally transparent
situation from the alarmco's position, so you could work and program
just as if you were on a POTS line.

I will ask them about that though...

RHC

 

[Anders]

Robert L Bass wrote:

[...]

Agreed. However, there are many millions of
existing systems which currently use POTS and
will soon be sitting behind VoIP. I expect we'll also
see plenty of Alarm-Internet "dialers" offered to
fill the coming market niche. This would be
a great opportunity for that Loxxon character. :^)

Seriously,
Do you think there is a real market opportunity there?
One of my clients is possibly interested in us making a unit like
that, and we were kicking some ideas around.
Basically a networked POST-simulator that understands SIA and CID.
Possibly with a socket for a GSM module too.
It would be a bit problematic to allow up/downloading unless you work
out the specifics with each panel mfg, but reporting would be easy.
I wasn't too enthusiastic about it, since I figured it must
have been done already -- do you know of such a widget?

</A>

 

[Jim]

Only in a cursury fashion to be quite honest. I am working closely
with a small development company in the process of designing an IP
communication unit called Lobenn. At the moment, they are going
through the lengthy process of getting ULC approval. I am one of
several alarm companies they interface with for information, trialing
equipment, and (in my case) the loan of alarm panels.

It would appear to be a decent unit; however, it will require a
specialized receiver at the station to transfer signals to the regular
receivers, so this may turn out to be somewhat of a "chicken and egg"
scenario. Big stations don't move too quickly, so it remains to be
seen about the "buyin".

I'm taking a "wait and see" approach to this whole thing, since I
don't want or need technical problems of that nature haunting me and
my clients.

Look at uControl

What's uControl?

 

[Robert L Bass]

Agreed. However, there are many millions of

Do you think there is a real market opportunity
there?

Absolutely, but the Loxxon remark was facetious.

One of my clients is possibly interested in us
making a unit like that, and we were kicking
some ideas around. Basically a networked
POST-simulator that understands SIA and CID.

Anything that can be used as a bridge between
an analog panel and the digital world might be
marketable... for a while. However, within a few
years analog will be dead. Panels will come
equipped for IP comms right out of the box. It's
not there yet but I belive it will be soon.

Possibly with a socket for a GSM module too.

That would be attractive to a portion of the DIY
market. Unfortunately for anyone hoping to
gain a slice of the alarm manufacturing pie,
DIY is probably less than 10% (possibly much
less) of the market. You're more likely to be
successful developing something that emphasizes
professional monitoring.

It would be a bit problematic to allow
up/downloading unless you work
out the specifics with each panel mfg, but
reporting would be easy.

If the unit emulates a POTS connection,
up/downloading should be a cinch.

I wasn't too enthusiastic about it, since I
figured it must have been done already --
do you know of such a widget?

It may exist but I'm not aware of it. That wouldn't
be the first time though. :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Jim]

www.ucontrol.com-

It would have been easier if you'd just said ....... crap!

 

[Anders]

Anything that can be used as a bridge between
an analog panel and the digital world might be
marketable... for a while. However, within a few
years analog will be dead. Panels will come
equipped for IP comms right out of the box. It's
not there yet but I belive it will be soon.

Looking at the last 10-15 years, the big boys are not
moving really fast when it comes to new features or
adopting new technologies. I have a history on the "inside"
on one of them, and the word "innovation" there means they took
another 10c off the manufacturing cost...
Their business will have to be hurt real bad before they leave
their 8051-based designs behind for something that can actually
handle networking.

If the unit emulates a POTS connection,
up/downloading should be a cinch.

Actually it's not easy... The control panel modems
are a mess. They are all different - not only between
manufacturers but even between models. Everyone here knows
about the problems of finding a computer modem that wants
to talk to panels -- try finding one that talks to *any* panel :/
So the only sure way of being really compatible would be to just
pipe the audio through, and then we're back with the same
problems as VoIP...

But cherry picking a few major panels to support might work.
I'll bring the discussion up with my client again.

 

[Jim]

You've obviously not played with it, then again it doesn't support
Napco...yet-

Yes it does.

 

[Jim]

Actually you can download with it, any format seems to work and it will work
with 2-way voice

I've been playing with the whole setup for months. I never ran into any
problems other than some noise with 2-way voice but then again I've got v2
equipment so it sounds like they DID fix whatever problems you had?

I was working with V1

It had another problem too, but for the life of me, I can't remember
what it was. Maybe they fixed that too.

That would be the GS3055, it looks interesting, as far as DSC's reputation a
lot of companies will go with them for the simple fact they are damn simple
and quick to hand program unlike umm.....heh

Sure, and they do a quater the things a Napco panel will do. Dumb is
as dumb does. You sure must have a lot of idiot customers.
I don't know of anyone in my area that still does keypad programing on
any sizeable panel.

StarLink? Played with that one too


Wrong, it's 9 volts to 16.5, it just originally came with a 9 volt
transformer, they will soon come with 16.5 and can be powered indirectly
through the panel using the included transformer in a daisy chain setup-

What are you ..... contrary Mary?

I said it's a 9 volt unit and can't be powered from the control panel.

You said it's 9 volts to 16.5 and can be indirectly powered through a
daisy chain setup.

How is that different than what I said? Anything can be indrectly
powered from anything else if you add some sort of conversion of
energy device.

Is it a 12vcd unit? No. Can it be powered from the control panel?
No.
Can it use the control panel standby battery? No.

Only if you have a converter an inverter a daisy chain, a 16.5 volt
source a hand generator, and a piece of silk and a glass rod and a
penny in some lemon juice.
Jeeeeeeeze!

 

[Jim]

No it doesn't, I know they list a lot of panels on the site but at the
moment it only supports Ademco 15P/20P and DSC Power series.

Well then, maybe you otta call them up and ask them. I posed as an end
user and asked about it's capabilities and told them I had a Napco
9600. They said it would work with their device. So maybe it's their "
V2" etc. I didn't ask about their V1

 

[Jim]

The transformer goes to the panel then the GSM radio daisy chained, I agree
with you tho that it didn't make sense to not make it powered by the aux bus
considering it uses less power than the old unit that could be powered by
the panel however one thing I've seen a lot of with cell units of all brands
is people tend to overload the panel, for that reason alone I'd rather it
have it's own power supply like TelGuard

BTW Was StarLink what you were talking about?

No. Star Link is their Radio.

Yes to the second part

How can it be powered from the contrl panel. It can't unless it has
some diddly wink converter attached to it.

It doesn't need one, it has it's own

If it could be powered from the control panel, it wouldn't need it's
own.

 

[Jim]

Its technically powered from the panel but not by the panel, you can figure
it out I'm sure

Again what difference does it make? An Uplink will use too much power, the
older 7845C would unless you programmed it for current limiter mode which
I'm guessing few ever did, even Star Link can use up to 2 amps in bursts,
not good considering a P9600 only does 750ma

It would be stupid to have any of these powered by the panel unless you had
an additional power supply anyway



I should think it having its own battery would have advantages, particularly
when the thing is trying to transmit while the panel is having an AC
failure, if you've seen low battery signals from an Uplink you'd understand,
see Uplink's don't have backup batteries and thats it's way of saying it's
not getting enough power from the panel

In answer to all of the above, you simply cut a fuse holder into the
positive leg of the battery lead of the control panel and power the
device from that. Use two 7.5 Ah batteries if you feel there's going
to be a problem with frequent power failures. Be diligent in changing
batteries every few years. ie, set up a reminder in your billing
program and drop ship the battery to the client every 3 years.

(SIGH) You have to constantly be reminded that it's not rokus smience.
Uhhh, romus suquence. Whatever.

 

[Jim]

They only have 1 version and it doesn't support Napco yet, but hey now would
be a great time for you to test it wouldn't it?-

I only know what the guy told me. The 9600 was compatable, according
to him.
Not likely I'd test it.
A lot to do with the fact that central stations that aren't in my area
don't give me what I want. Clients like the fact that their central is
local. I like the fact that I can meet the operators, drop off gifts
during the holidays, buy an occasional lunch and knowing that the
manager knows that I can come down there in no time to find out what
the **** is going on! There's no such thing as a disinterested
operator or unresponding manager at any of my centrals. Ive met and
had lunch with all of them.

It wouldn't be the same with someone I've never met, who's 1000 miles
away, who knows that I"M a 1000 miles away.

 

[Robert L Bass]

If the unit emulates a POTS connection,

Actually it's not easy...

I should have been more clear. I meant the
process will be no more difficult than it currently
is using POTS lines.

The control panel modems are a mess...

That's partly because most panels don't even
have a true modem. Many only send carrier
while transmitting. As soon as they stop
sending carrier the DL modem senses a
lost connection and hangs up. Napco is a
typical example of this. The solution, a phone
off the hook at the DL office or a Napco
PCI-2000 (which simulated a phone off the
hook).

They are all different - not only between
manufacturers but even between models...

Well, between lines anyway.

Everyone here knows about the problems of
finding a computer modem that wants to talk
to panels -- try finding one that talks to *any*
panel :/

That would be like finding the golden fleece.
Unfortunately, neither one exists.

So the only sure way of being really compatible
would be to just pipe the audio through, and
then we're back with the same problems as VoIP...

The real solution is coming and none too soon --
Internet enabled panels. You may believe that all
manufacturers are dragging their feet but there
are already a few models with basic online
functionality. As soon as one or two of the big,
national players decide to push one everyone
else will jump on the bandwagon.

But cherry picking a few major panels to support
might work...

That's what I did over the years. I found Napco
panels to be reliable and more configurable than
anything in their price range. We could and did
work with numerous other brands when we did
takeovers. But our stock in trade was Napco.
I had a couple of modems and PCI-2000 units
in the CS office and each technician carried a
laptop with Napco software and a PCI-MINI on
installations and service calls.

We also had software, a number of chip burners
and dedicated programmers for the panels our
competitors installed.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Jim]

I got a "Little Buttie" buttset last year from a guy in your area,

Yeh ..... I'd imagine you did.

does that count?

Only if he sent you flowers the next day.

What does that have to do with uControl?

I wouldn't have them monitor my accounts with their device.

True, you'd have to be really pissed to drive a thousand miles to chew out a
manager

Yep.