DC generator vs DC Converter

[JoeSixPack]

snipped for brevity



This is basically how I use my system. I have twin 20Kw Gensets
that I run for a totall of 10 hours a day. (7Am to noon, and 5Pm to 10Pm)
That takes care of the main High Power Loadings of Breakfast and Dinner
and the charging of all the battery banks for the twin inverter systems
connected. It also keeps the four freezers at better than -10F on a
24/7 basis, and the telco equipment battery bank charged. I have had
really good luck with both a 1200Amp/hour 24Vdc L16HD bank, as well
as a 800Amp/hour 24Vdc Absolyte II AGM battery bank. These are on
the inverter systems. L16 bank is over 4 years old, and replaced a
800Amp/hour bank that was 12 years old. The Absolyte II bank is 8 years
old now and still has 95% of the new capacity.

Bruce in alaska
--

Ain't he da man?

 

[George Ghio]

Uh, since you apparently didn't figure it out, Tony was referring to you
George.

Wayne asked some straight-forward questions about your generator/rheostat
set up and you 'bravely ran away' by changing the topic to your usual rant
about Wayne and his system.

Why don't you just answer the questions?? Or are you too busy 'bravely
running away, and buggering off and skipping town and ......'

You seem to be using about 100W during finishing charge. This is
underutilizing your 5HP engine by much more than what you yourself have
criticized others about. How come??

You 'plug in the field to the rheostat'? Why don't you just permanently
wire it up to a switch?

If you only use the generator for occasional backups (after all, you've
bragged often that PV charges your batteries to 100% most days before noon,
it's so well designed); then why do you perform a full charge with the
generator? This conflicts with your other statements about, "I only
require that they be in the top twenty per cent of their capacity." Which
is it, charge them up full most days with PV, or use generator to fully
charge them, or both??

How does manually connecting ('plug in'), frequently manually adjusting a
rheostat, frequently monitoring for 'bubbling' and excess voltage, "beat
the s___ out of any electric battery charger"? Or are you just comparing
your method with $12 auto-parts store types of chargers, and not considering
*real*, well-designed, chargers? If so, why?

daestrom

First of all I'm not Runaway Wayne. Tony described him to a tee.

Now are you asking for yourself? Or just as a proxy for Runaway Wayne.

If you are asking for yourself, I just might answer your questions.

While you ponder you answer think of this before you start saying I ran
away.


Wayne, AKA, Wanker Wayne, AKA, Runaway Wayne, AKA BB Perhaps you should
be aware of his history. He had a Web site, you know, the kind of site
that says “Hey look at what I’ve done”.

Well, as you might expect it was only a matter of time before someone
came along and said “OK, What have you in fact done?”

The upshot being that Wayne pulled on his running shoes and … Well,
history speaks for itself. Wayne’s first long distance run started with
the question and ended when he pulled his web site, quite simply because
he could not work out what he had done.

The truth is he is still running, oh, he turns around now and again to
hurl abuse or issue some childish challenge. But over all he is in line
for sponsorship from Nike.

Still, to date, he is totally unable to tell us how he arrived at his
two days autonomy or even what the magical “reduced load” is that makes
his two days autonomy possible.

I know it’s sad, but there you have it. How could you take Wayne
seriously when even a simple two days autonomy is beyond his ability.

And dare I mention his little "Grinder in the house" fiasco. Shit, if he
can't work out his own system what makes any one think he could make up
a scenario that is believable. It was a farce. Pure and simple. Rather
than sitting down with a calculator and crunching some numbers to get it
right he turned tail and ran.

And all the time hiding behind his "I don't have to tell you" attitude,
supported by a lot of people who know even less than Wayne.

So why should I waste my and everybody else's time and band width
explaining to a moron what he should be able to see for himself.

Now he challenges what is a basic and simple battery charger anyone can
build, on the basis of it being too hard to operate.

As far as my battery charger is concerned it cost me almost nothing to
build. It does a better job than the $1200 electric charger that fails
so often that I have a collection of them as scrap collected from very
dissatisfied people who want one like mine.

So, have you had time to think about it? Who's asking, you or the
pitiful long distance runner?

 

[JoeSixPack]

Did you ever help that Islamic fellow who was suffering from american
satanic stones?

 

[George Ghio]

You mean Ali bin Wayne. Nah.

 

[wmbjk]

So why should I waste my and everybody else's time and band width
explaining to a moron what he should be able to see for himself.

Now he challenges what is a basic and simple battery charger anyone can
build, on the basis of it being too hard to operate.

I wouldn't call it "hard" to operate. More like "unnecessarily
inconvenient and inefficient". But as you've described its features,
it does have one that David Copperfield might be interested in:
exactly how at only 35 Amps and tapering down, it's nevertheless able
to produce over 600 Ahrs in 3 hours. That's what we might call a
six-fold magic trick. Put another way, even though 3 hour's running
would normally about cover a single day's consumption, in loaves and
fishes fashion it's apparently able to replace 6 days of discharge.

Here are 3 possible explanations:

1. That your "I know what's going on at all times" battery voltage
readings *aren't* at-rest. Instead, 12 Volts is a battery-discharging
reading, 12.8 Volts is a battery-charging reading, and neither reflect
a true state of charge. That's a common mistake made by rookies, who
usually learn to either work around the limitations or buy a proper
battery monitor. But someone claiming 20 years of experience would
have to be one hell of slow learner to keep making the same mistake.
And if we believe that's why your descriptions don't make sense, it
means that you're firing up the generator well in advance of your
frequently bragged-on 5 days autonomy being exhausted. So why "design"
for so much battery capacity if you prefer not to use it, but to run a
generator instead?

2. That the readings *are* at-rest, and represent the true state of
charge. That's the only way a knowledgeable person would quote battery
voltage without qualification. In which case the 3 hour charge routine
you described would take perhaps 21 hours. That tall of a tale makes
perfect sense considering your history of reality-optional posts.

3. That your battery capacity has deteriorated to a fraction of
nameplate. Being on your fourth set of tired batteries would explain
why you mentioned replacing the current set quite a while ago, and why
you're reluctant to talk about equalizing. With a small enough
capacity and a dollop of number fudging, your charging descriptions
could actually make some sense. But that would mean that your recent
claim of "happy" batteries is either BS or ignorance. Or most likely,
a bunch of both.

As far as my battery charger is concerned it cost me almost nothing to
build.

Reasonable readers would expect that your endlessly self-proclaimed
"design" ability wouldn't allow you to intentionally set a new
benchmark of inefficiency by marrying a 5hp engine to an oft-times
100W output. Is there any valid reason you didn't use a $5, 65A
alternator like most other people do? Or go on a mad spending spree
and buy a shiny new one for $50?

It does a better job than the $1200 electric charger that fails
so often that I have a collection of them as scrap collected from very
dissatisfied people who want one like mine.

These narrow-minded recommendations and phony choices you offer are a
reflection of your lack of experience. Why would the choice have to be
between a particular type of electric charger, and features <snorf>
such as "plugging in the field"? Why not a better-matched alternator

So, have you had time to think about it? Who's asking, you or the
pitiful long distance runner?

Daestrom asked you fairly and directly, in public, to answer "straight
forward" questions. Weasel and dissemble all you like, but it will
only prolong your time in the hot seat.

Wayne

 

[wmbjk]

Did you ever help that Islamic fellow who was suffering from american
satanic stones?

I tried to imagine who might be interested in George's book after
reading his posts. I figured it would have to be one of George's
fellow awful...I mean artful dodgers. I'm thinking that George was
already spending the $25 in his mind, right up until the time he
clicked on the URL and found out he'd been had.

Wayne

 

[JoeSixPack]

BTW I'm looking for my Gavalia coffee maker.
Do you know where it is or how many watts it uses? I fugure I can either
buy a 1500 watt inverter or get a coffee maker that will run off my 800
watt
inverter. Which coffee makers use less than 800 watts?

No offense, but that's about the least efficient way to make coffee that
exists. What's wrong with with a stovetop percolator pot, or pouring
boiling water through a filter basket, or a Bodum? If you must use an
automatic drip coffeemaker, truckstops sell a number of 12V models.

 

[[email protected]]

...I fugure I can either buy a 1500 watt inverter or get a coffee maker
that will run off my 800 watt inverter. Which coffee makers use less
than 800 watts?

You may be going in the wrong direction.

I just installed a 3 kW 240 V UK Swan teakettle in my kitchen, removing
the 13 A fused plug and wiring the line cord into my 3-wire range with
spade disconnects. (How many NEC violations is that?

It boils water in less than a minute with five times the microwave's power
and twice the efficiency, then instantly turns itself off.

GE makes a wimpy 1500 watt 120 V version, $30 at Wal-Mart. At 6 kW on 240 V,
(the grid is 249 V at my house), its 6548 watts might boil a cup of 60 F water
in 3600x0.5(212-60)/(6548x3.142) = 12.4 seconds, within the dual 40 amp range
breaker capacity, altho that might fill the kitchen with huge clouds of steam
and shorten the life of the heating element and burn out the pilot light.

And... a Halloween "Crash-a-Witch" hugging a bundle of burned-out flourescent
tubes would look cool hanging from a nylon rope over the 25 kV transmission
line on the telephone pole above my mailbox, close enough to the line to glow.

Nick, EE gone wrong.

 

[wmbjk]

GE makes a wimpy 1500 watt 120 V version, $30 at Wal-Mart. At 6 kW on 240 V,
(the grid is 249 V at my house), its 6548 watts might boil a cup of 60 F water
in 3600x0.5(212-60)/(6548x3.142) = 12.4 seconds,

Reminds me of a comedy bit, Cathy Ladman I think... standing in front
of the microwave, irritated, growling "come on!!".

Wayne

 

[George Ghio]

Two days autonomy, How hard is it? Impossible for Runaway Wayne.

Nothing he has said below is worth reading. He jumps to conclusions
based on the sludge between his ears.

You can start with his comment about replacing 600 Ah. This is just a
figment of his mad dash to prove me wrong. At no time did I ever use the
figure 600 Ah.

Wanker Wayne is wrong. Again. No surprise.

 

[wmbjk]

At no time did I ever use the
figure 600 Ah.

You didn't need to George. You gave your before and after battery
voltages of 12 and 12.8. That's a difference of about 75% of charge,
which on your 840Ah rated battery is 630Ah. Care to elaborate on your
story of replacing 630Ah in only 3 hours using a 35A tapered charge?

Put another way (while being generous and leaving out the short
strokes), if 90Ah of supply from 3 hours of tapered-charging generator
time takes an at-rest battery from 12V to 12.8V, then that battery's
capacity is about 120Ah, not 840. You may never understand, but
everybody else does...

I really like these posts where you pretend you haven't blundered. If
rational stories were ball parks and numbers were players, then your
team is stuck in traffic 10 miles from the field while singing "99
bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer..."

Wayne

 

[George Ghio]

Wrong again Wayne

You didn't need to George. You gave your before and after battery
voltages of 12 and 12.8. That's a difference of about 75% of charge,
which on your 840Ah rated battery is 630Ah. Care to elaborate on your
story of replacing 630Ah in only 3 hours using a 35A tapered charge?

Put another way (while being generous and leaving out the short
strokes), if 90Ah of supply from 3 hours of tapered-charging generator
time takes an at-rest battery from 12V to 12.8V, then that battery's
capacity is about 120Ah, not 840. You may never understand, but
everybody else does...

I really like these posts where you pretend you haven't blundered. If
rational stories were ball parks and numbers were players, then your
team is stuck in traffic 10 miles from the field while singing "99
bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer..."

Wayne

 

[Derek Broughton]

I absolutely agree, but heck, if I have my little Honda or
engine/alternator/invertor going I like the convenience. Besides it only
takes about 6 or 7 minutes to make a pot of coffee so it's not really that
big of a deal.

Except that if you have to invest in new generators or coffee makers just to
get a good cup of coffee, mightn't it make more sense just to use the
stove-top perc you already have?

I just bought a 650 watt coffee maker on eBay this morning so we'll see
how
it works on my 700 or 800 watt inverter. Part of my goal is to be able to
run some *essential* appliances from the engine/alternator/inverter setup

I guess we all have our own definitions of essential

My wife was just asking what I miss in our current off-grid lifestyle, and
the only thing I really miss is the microwave - and that only in summer.
Once the heating season starts, things sit on the oil stove to warm up or
stay warm. Also - and this is relevant to your situation - a full kettle
sits on that oil stove whenever the stove is on, so it usually takes less
than 30 seconds to get boiling water for tea or coffee.

(Actually we still have the microwave - unpacked since we moved in - and I
couldn't convince _her_ to put it in the yard sale last month).

(can well call it EAI for short?)

I just call it "inverter" for short - there always needs to be assumed some
way to power the inverter, be it engine/alternator, batteries, solar panels
or wind generator (all of which I use).

 

[wmbjk]

Wrong again Wayne

If you believed that, then you'd have dumped another explanatory opus
of blunders on us by now. Perhaps you've finally learned your lesson,
and perhaps the sun will rise in the West tomorrow.

One has to wonder if your "book" contains a battery capacity/voltage
chart, and if you've ever bothered to read it.

Wayne

 

[Derek Broughton]

Sooner or later I will get a least a couple of solar panels to get
started but it costs about $900 just to get about 14 or 15 amps and there
would probably not be enough power there to allow for my microwave and
coffee maker ;-)

Don't you still have rebates for solar panels?

 

[Steve Spence]

Ulysses wrote:




Don't you still have rebates for solar panels?

Hey, that's a good idea, make your neighbors pay for your solar panels .....

 

[George Ghio]

If you believed that, then you'd have dumped another explanatory opus
of blunders on us by now. Perhaps you've finally learned your lesson,
and perhaps the sun will rise in the West tomorrow.

One has to wonder if your "book" contains a battery capacity/voltage
chart, and if you've ever bothered to read it.

Wayne

Logged data says you are wrong.

And logged data is worth far more than the sad advice from someone who
can't even work out two days autonomy.

 

[Derek Broughton]

Hey, that's a good idea, make your neighbors pay for your solar panels

What? You recommend that people _not_ take advantage of existing rebates?
Thus encouraging the people who _don't_ to pay for others panels.

We don't have any rebates here, but I would never suggest to anyone that
they not apply for any that were offered. I'm already paying enough to
subsidize the oil & gas industry - I should be able to take advantage of
the subsidies that apply to _me_.

In this case, Ulysses was quoting figures that look normal to me, but seemed
high for what I knew of California. It hadn't occurred to me that CA
rebates only applied to grid-connected homes.

 

[wmbjk]

wmbjk wrote:

If you believed that, then you'd have dumped another explanatory opus
of blunders on us by now. Perhaps you've finally learned your lesson,
and perhaps the sun will rise in the West tomorrow.

One has to wonder if your "book" contains a battery capacity/voltage
chart, and if you've ever bothered to read it.

Cool! <I heart Ghioisms> So by logging data when charging batteries,
one can take 840Ah of batteries from 12V to 12.8V with less than 90Ah
of charging! I can almost hear the infomercial.... "Amazing!". And
yet... I can't help but notice that you're not posting any of that
data. It seems heartless of you to withhold an opportunity for the
rest of us to see battery charging COP numbers for the first time.

You know George, considering how you embellished your charging story
with irreconcilable details, there wasn't ever any face-saving way to
write your way out of it. But you'd be better off claiming brain-fade
due to kangaroo fumes than continuing to weasel. You may as well be
wearing a sandwich board advertising your own willful ignorance.

Wayne

 

[George Ghio]

So, oh master of numbers. Tell us about your two days autonomy and the
magical reduced load. Then someone just might believe you.

You are still wrong. Now all the clues are there work it out. I have the
logged data and it is much more reliable than your ranting.