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Dammit.. How to get 2 zones and power from a 4-conductor

Discussion in 'Security Alarms' started by Nelson Muntz, Apr 19, 2007.

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  1. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest

    So I just finished this job with 5 home-run motions to the CP. As I
    was doing training I told him about the tamper switches on the motions
    IS25100TC (front and back) that I wired in series with the alarm
    contacts. He thought that was great - then added, "so I'll be able to
    know right away when someone knocks the thing off the wall, right?".
    Of course the answer is 'no'. I never planned on putting the tampers
    on a separate 24 hour zone - otherwise I would have run 6 conductor.
    Now he wants that "feature", and the trick for sharing a 'common' wire
    for power and zone won't work as far as I can tell. Am I correct, or
    is there a way to do it without running more wire?
     
  2. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest

    I failed to mention that there is only 1 unused zone, so the problem
    is I can't series in the tampers together all on the same zone using
    the shared common trick.
     
  3. Doug

    Doug Guest

    What panel are you using ?, on most panels the zone common and the power
    negative are the same so you can use the power -ve at the motion for the
    zone common.

    Alternatively if the panel supports DEOL then use DEOL and have the tamper
    circuit open the zone completely,

    Doug
     
  4. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest

    Vista 15-P
    I know. But the problem is how to hook up the tampers at the panel
    end, since I can not just series all 5 with only one "high" coming
    back. I only have one extra zone.


    What is DEOL?
     
  5. sure he will by the zone that is open keeping him from arming.
    once the sale is made you gotta quit selling or you can unsell yourself.
    talk about other stuff. like what interests the buyer.
     
  6. alarman

    alarman Guest

    Add a zone expander. The customer wants something extra, shouldn't he pay
    for it?
    Double end of line resistor configuration allows you to monitor the alarm
    contact as well as the integrity of the wiring (tamper and fault) with a
    single pair of wires. DSC panels have the option, not sure about Ademco.
    js
     
  7. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest

    Yes. I thought about an expander and doing it the shortcut way , or
    running new wire for the tamper zone and put them all together on a 24
    hour (almost useless). Or do it right and run more wire AND add the
    expander. <sigh> Me and my big mouth. We never discussed this
    feature - I added the tampers for him to see if a motion was bad when
    he armed. But then I had to open my big mouth and tell him about
    scheduling, which is programmed to auto-arm, which led to this cluster
    ****. In retrospect I made the error. I should have anticipated his
    needs and offered it from the beginning. Shit.

    Ahh, I didn't recognize (recognise for Doug) the acronym. Ademco
    does not support it-- but it does give me an idea. I could swap the
    board for a Vista-20 and do some zone doubling nappy-headed-ho
    rigging.
     
  8. Doug

    Doug Guest

    I recognise you for what you are.

    Doug
     
  9. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest


    Thanks. The zone-double idea dawned on me when Jack told me what the
    acronym DEOL is. I have used DEOL many times on access control, but
    never named it :)

    I like yours and Doug's solution with the DSC panel. Thanks. Now I
    have to figure out what is the least hassle. Either way- the price
    just went up. I was never told he wanted that capability - but I take
    partial blame for not presenting it.
     
  10. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest


    Just don't tell anyone :))
     
  11. Doug

    Doug Guest

    I said for what you are, not who you are

    Doug

    --
     
  12. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest


    Ummm..

    What am I?
     
  13. alarman

    alarman Guest

    Ah, OK. Well, if you can't get him to pay for the upgrade, just do it right
    anyway and chalk it up to experience.

    js
     
  14. alarman

    alarman Guest

    You already did.
    js
     
  15. Bud

    Bud Guest

    correct me if I'm wrong. you said the motions are tampered to the wall and
    the cover. so if a motion gets knocked off the wall the zone will be open.
    this will alert the owner of the problem. if so then you have no problem.
    do not think the owner has the tech expertise that you possess. he doesn't
    know about tamper zones or deol. don't make your job harder by assuming he
    does. he just needs to know that if a zone is faulted to go check it to see
    whats wrong. right?
     
  16. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest


    It's a strange situation. This is the same one I posted about with
    the $500 budget.

    It's a mini-storage. The manager lives on-site. We finally agreed
    (grudgingly) that a noisemaker would sound if someone ( or a bird,
    roach, or spider) was in the 3-story building I would provide a loud
    noise. That's it. I do not consider this a security system at all..
    I used the Vista-15P panel purely because it's logic ability that
    could not be replicated cheaper with relays.

    Our agreement was that this thing WILL false alarm, and often. It is
    not monitored or course. Now he want's to catch vandals in real time
    - with my PIR's as bait. That was never part of the deal. I am
    already losing money on this shit. I should have never done it.

    The whole issue with tampers came up when I was doing the training. I
    told him that they are tampered front and back - he thought that was
    great and assumed a tamper situation meant he would be alerted during
    the day.
     
  17. I never planned on putting the tampers
    Yes, the common wire method will work.
    You'll need one extra zone per detector
    unless your detectors have a form "C"
    tamper. In that case you can get by with
    one common tamper zone but it won't be
    fully supervised.

    2-Zones per Sensor Method with the panel
    using negative for zone returns:
    At the panel:
    - Connect Red to +12V Aux.
    - Connect Black to Common Negative
    - Connect Yellow to alarm zone
    - Connect Green to tamper zone
    At the detector:
    - Connect Red to +12VDC
    - Connect Black to -12VDC
    - Connect Yellow to alarm NC
    - Connect Green to tamper NC
    - Wire two EOL resistors in the PIR:
    - Connect 1st EOLR from -12VDC to alarm C
    - Connect 2nd EOLR from -12VDC to tamper C
    If the panel uses positive for the zone returns
    connect the EOLRs to the +12VDC in the PIR.

    The above is the more secure of the two methods
    but it uses more zones. Following is less secure
    but uses only one tamper zone. The problem is
    it requires PIRs with a form C tamper.

    At the panel:
    Wire everything the same as above but splice
    all of the Green wires together and run a pigtail
    from the bundle to one zone which is programmed
    for tamper. Jump the tamper zone with en EOLR.

    At the detectors:
    - Connect Red to +12VDC
    - Connect Black to -12VDC
    - Connect Yellow to alarm NO
    - Connect Green to tamper NO
    - Connect an EOLR from -12VDC to alarm C
    - Jumper a wire from -12VDC to tamper C

    This method supervises the alarm output but not
    the tamper circuit so it's not as secure as the first
    method. However, if there aren't enough zones
    for two per detector it's better than no tamper at all.

    --

    Regards,
    Robert L Bass

    =============================>
    Bass Home Electronics
    941-925-8650
    4883 Fallcrest Circle
    Sarasota · Florida · 34233
    http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
    =============================>
     
  18. Bud

    Bud Guest

    been there done that. live and learn. good luck
     
  19. Nelson Muntz

    Nelson Muntz Guest


    Thanks.

    That won't work because I already stated the model # of the PIR's. The
    contact is NO. Which BTW Ademco labeled the contacts wrong... they
    think they do installers a favor by backwards labeling. NO means the
    contact is open in a shelf-state (like every relay is labeled) -

    Ademco has it bass-asswards. When I see any component I adhere to
    shelf-state meaning no power applied. So a motion detector should
    land on the NO contacts of a normal "closed loop circuit", common in
    our industry. But Ademco, in their infinite wisdom, decided to
    switch the label - probably because most alarm techs have not
    graduated the 8th grade.. huh?

    That is a bug.
     
  20. Crash Gordon

    Crash Gordon Guest

    so which is more cost effective, swapping board and reprogramming or using
    your existing 4 cond. as a pull line and just repulling new 6 ?


    | Roland wrote:
    |
    | >It looks like you might have to swap panels and upgrade (well it's Ademco
    so
    | >it's never really an upgrade) to a 20P to get the feature you want
    without
    | >extra wiring.
    | >If you switch to a DSC 1832 (about the same money for the kit - not much
    | >better or worse gear than Honeywell/Ademco) you can use the:
    | >Zone Status - Loop Resistance/Loop Status
    | >. Fault - 0? (shorted wire/loop)
    | >. Secure - 5600? (contact closed)
    | >. Tamper - infinite (broken wire, open)
    | >. Violated - 11,200? (contact open)
    |
    |
    | Thanks. The zone-double idea dawned on me when Jack told me what the
    | acronym DEOL is. I have used DEOL many times on access control, but
    | never named it :)
    |
    | I like yours and Doug's solution with the DSC panel. Thanks. Now I
    | have to figure out what is the least hassle. Either way- the price
    | just went up. I was never told he wanted that capability - but I take
    | partial blame for not presenting it.
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
     
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