Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Cutting panels

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Hi Joerg,

amdx said:
On 7/21/2013 4:47 AM, Don Y wrote:
My problem is cutting these long slots in some material
(e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish.
[I suspect these slots are punched in commercial offerings
so they are nice and square, etc.]

You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like
"aluminum with a file" :< ...

Not sure why you'd see filed edges in this case. If you mean the
outsides of a cut panel I do this:

No. Outside is easy -- you can bring power tools to bear (belt
sanders, etc.) But, when cutting a long, thin slot/opening in the
interior of the piece, your choices quickly get limited. Esp if
you want nice square corners, etc.

Well, in my teenage days I did both inside and outside strictly by hand.
The only power tool I had, and only on occasion, was dad's electric
drill. But strictly no milling or routing with that because it would
have ruined the bearings. When I was 15 or so my parents gave me a new
Metabo drill but I didn't want to wreck its bearings either. I didn't
really have any other power tools until after my EE degree except for a
huge and rather dangerous home-brew grinder.

For the insides I glued sandpaper on a piece of plywood, made the
smoothing job quite easy.

The ones I've seen are all *mounted* from the back. See the
images (URL) I posted in another reply.

True, when they are on a PCB they do not cover the slots. But it ain't
so bad to get the slots done cleanly. A couple of years ago I did that
for an audio rack. Looked like it came that way from the manufacturer.

Back in Europe engineers had to go through part of the apprentice
program that journeymen go through. It teaches students precision filing
and all that. We were only allowed to use simple power tools such as the
drill press. And woe to him whose piece of workmanship was 0.005" off
somewhere. The master would make you start all over, from scratch.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Oh, yes! A rigid (thin) sheet of plastic onto which is adhered
a nice, *legended* applique (photographically reproduced from a
Photoshop/Illustrator file created on your PC for $2 at your local
Costco, etc.). Make things look *really* professional/custom!
Much cleaner than scribbling what each connector services *on*
the panel itself!

Hey, can you elaborate on that Costco deal? I am always looking for a
fast way to make nice-looking front panels. Do they offer some sort of
thick-plastic printing?

[...]
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Hi Joerg,

[Are you threatened by fires?]

Not yet. We live 35mi east of Sacramento.

[...]

It's still less than what most wives spend on shoes, handbags and such
in a year :)

You need to find yourself a less-expensive model!! ;-)

[I now have *three* pair of shoes and it has left me stressed to
the max! Never can find the pair I want to wear... <frown> ]

I wear down at least one pair/year, sometimes two. My car mileage is
around 2000mi/year, my hoofing mileage in the same ballpark. Yet the
cost for shoes for myself is easily $100/year while the pro-rated car
tire expenditures are less than half that. Day and night quality
difference. It's so not fair.
 
L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Lasse said:
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 9:49:40 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:


[...]


When I built electronics I usually built the enclosure first, the result

had to look good and preferably free of blemishes and imperfections.



http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/accukeyer.jpg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/oak2.jpg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/PL509amp2.jpg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/PL509amp2.jpg



Most had cut-outs or sides that needed to be polished. The last one has

lots of scratches but those are from various ham events were it got a

beating.
sure it is doable with practice and attention to detail, look like the ones
you show all have mountings the goes on the outside of the panel
with something that gets mounted from the back so you can see the cut out
it need to be that much more accurate



Sorry, the last link was wrong, this is the unit that got scratched up

in service:



http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/QB5amp2.jpg



I sawed the front panel from a larger piece of aluminum. One of the cuts

actually had to be made with the bare saw blade wrapped in an old sock,

the bow of the saw was too small to reach around. It resulted in some

nasty blisters. I went all the way to 600-grit paper with chalk on this one.

but there is still no internal cutouts with the edge visible, the pots and meter all mount so they cover the edge

[...]



with the right bit a normal router works fine on aluminium, hack up a
template from a few pieces of wood and use a copy ring


For a one-off piece I'd plunge right in with it :)



Unfortunately I don't have a router and I am really out of space for

more such tools. I do enjoy making stuff by hand on occasion, when there

is time. Otherwise, in America you can rent just about anything.
a router takes less space than a pair of shoes :p



But not for this job. You need a small router table as well, plus

ideally a stand. Like this:



http://www.harborfreight.com/router-table-with-router-95380.html

you could just bolt the alu to a piece of wood and do kinda like this:

for a simple rectangular hole the template is really easy
Sure, but sometimes it's nice to build something with your hands. I

still have stuff my grandpa made by hand, he taught me that.



--

Regards, Joerg



http://www.analogconsultants.com/

-Lasse
 
L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hey, can you elaborate on that Costco deal? I am always looking for a

fast way to make nice-looking front panels. Do they offer some sort of

thick-plastic printing?

I've used http://www.schaeffer-ag.de/en for some milled alu front and rear panels they look great and wasn't very expensive,

The design program is very easy to use, calculates and breaks down price
for each operation so it is real easy to tweak it

they even have options for for colored lettering, threading etc.

-Lasse
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Grant said:
And it's from Harbor Freight, so you know it's a well-designed,
high-quality piece of gear. :)

This was under the assumption of occasional use, not industrial 24/7
use. So far Harborfreight stuff has been good to me.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Lasse said:
Lasse said:
On Sunday, July 21, 2013 9:49:40 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:

[...]



When I built electronics I usually built the enclosure first,
the result had to look good and preferably free of blemishes
and imperfections.
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/accukeyer.jpg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/oak2.jpg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/PL509amp2.jpg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/PL509amp2.jpg Most
had cut-outs or sides that needed to be polished. The last one
has lots of scratches but those are from various ham events
were it got a beating.
sure it is doable with practice and attention to detail, look
like the ones you show all have mountings the goes on the outside
of the panel with something that gets mounted from the back so
you can see the cut out it need to be that much more accurate


Sorry, the last link was wrong, this is the unit that got scratched
up

in service:



http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/QB5amp2.jpg



I sawed the front panel from a larger piece of aluminum. One of the
cuts

actually had to be made with the bare saw blade wrapped in an old
sock,

the bow of the saw was too small to reach around. It resulted in
some

nasty blisters. I went all the way to 600-grit paper with chalk on
this one.

but there is still no internal cutouts with the edge visible, the
pots and meter all mount so they cover the edge

They aren't visible but they are smooth. Unless I was in a hurry I
wanted it to still look nice after someone takes a meter out. I made
gaskets for my Citroen 2CV from copper in a similar way. When I sold the
car to a scrap dealer who wanted its 16hp engine for a client in Norway
they couldn't believe it.
[...]
with the right bit a normal router works fine on aluminium,
hack up a template from a few pieces of wood and use a copy
ring
For a one-off piece I'd plunge right in with it :)
Unfortunately I don't have a router and I am really out of
space for more such tools. I do enjoy making stuff by hand on
occasion, when there is time. Otherwise, in America you can
rent just about anything.
a router takes less space than a pair of shoes :p


But not for this job. You need a small router table as well, plus

ideally a stand. Like this:



http://www.harborfreight.com/router-table-with-router-95380.html

you could just bolt the alu to a piece of wood and do kinda like
this:

for a simple rectangular hole the template is really easy

With metal you'll need a bit more guidance but yes, it can be done in a
similar way if the router and bit are ok for it.

[...]
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Joerg,

Hey, can you elaborate on that Costco deal? I am always looking for a
fast way to make nice-looking front panels. Do they offer some sort of
thick-plastic printing?

Dunno. I was just advocating a *regular* 8x10 glossy photo print
rubber cemented onto a plastic/aluminum panel. That way, you can
get the "graphics" as a commodity product.

[Realistically, a glossy photo would probably not fare well.
But, that doesn't mean you can't take advantage of some other
"print from PC" technology to come up with a nice legended overlay.
I.e., separate the cosmetic from the structural requirements...]

Decades ago, we used to make those stick on "serial number/product
ID" plates on a 1-off basis in the blueprint room. Some sort of
aluminum(?) with a black coating that could be etched away
(or, maybe it was *deposited*?). With the sort of technology available
today (photo processes), it should be possible to do at least that
same sort of thing (IIRC, we made a template from clear film and
stick on lettering -- then "exposed" this onto the aluminum product)

In any case, something like the above solution(s) should be available
for hobbyists trying to make 1-offs without dropping a lot of money
into something with little *functional* value.
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Joerg,

Grant Edwards wrote:

This was under the assumption of occasional use, not industrial 24/7
use. So far Harborfreight stuff has been good to me.

I think HF is "OK" -- if your expectations are "suitably adjusted".
<grin>

A friend has a hammer drill and set of bits from HF that I have used
several times with great success:
- holes in the slab to support new walls
- holes in the wall/fence surrounding the property to support pipes
- holes through the concrete block to get wires in/out of the house

[Actually, as of an hour ago, I appear to have inherited this toy!
Yay! If it was 100 degrees cooler, I might think it was Christmas!!]

Damn thing makes these task almost enjoyable! Really cool to be
able to drill a 1" hole through concrete without breaking a sweat!

OTOH, I certainly wouldn't want to depend on it if that was the
essence of my *livelihood*!

Likewise, I need a tile/wet saw and a drywall lift. I am leary of
HF as the quality issue *can* have repercussions in each of these
scenarios.

E.g., if you have to "fight" the saw to get it to do the job, you
are more likely to end up with unacceptable results. (tile tends
to be located in highly visible locations!) And, if the drywall
lift opts to *slip* under load, you end up with a broken back!

<frown>
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

I need to fabricate a "patch panel" for a network
distribution point. Most COTS panels are fabricated
in multiples of 12 or 24.

E.g., 1x12, 1x24 (as 12+12), 4x24, etc.

Graphically, something like:

1x12 XXXXXXXXXXXX

1x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX

4x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX

Each 'X' being an 8P8C RJ45S connector.

Typically, these "connector assemblies" are fastened
to the rear of an aluminum plate while the connectors
themselves protrude through holes in that plate
(actually, since the connectors typically abut each other,
the holes are really long *slots*)

[Sorry if all this is obvious -- if you've seen one such
panel, you'd understand what I mean]

In my particular case (1-off), I need to fabricate two
"3x12" panels:

XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX

My problem is cutting these long slots in some material
(e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish.
[I suspect these slots are punched in commercial offerings
so they are nice and square, etc.]

You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like
"aluminum with a file" :< I just can't imagine keeping
nice hard, straight edges going that route!

So, I'm exploring other fabrication options. E.g., perhaps
replace the aluminum with lexan? (though I'm not sure that
will be any easier to machine -- "hot knife"?)

[I have a friend with several wire EDM's but can't bring myself
to ask for that big of a favor! :-/ ]

Currently, I figure the easiest solution is to find a couple of
4x24 panels and cut them each in "half" (more like 55/45%]
discarding the undersized "halves".

Is there some other trick I can explore? Anything *strong* that
can be "molded"/poured? (the panels have to support a fair bit
of force as things are plugged/unplugged "carelessly")

Thanks!
--don

Hi, Don:-

Protocase does this sort of thing at a fairly reasonable price-
they'll put markings on too. I think frontpanelexpress.com as well,
but never tried them. They use CNC punching so you get almost smooth
edges (a bit of a burr where the successive punch hits overlap, which
could be smoothed off with a file, but is usually unnecessary).

You could also make a relatively crappy panel with a scroll saw and
file (lots of light, magnifier lamp or safety glasses up close, and
clear the chips often), and cover it with a (eg. plastic) bezel that
is thin enough to cut with an Xacto(tm) knife. I assume you're using
something like 3mm hard Al so hand punching or pneumatic nibbling
would be a bear. Oh, and use appropriate file sizes and the type with
no teeth on the sides so as to get sharp corners. A skilled person can
do wonders with a file. ;-) Supposedly one 'hiring' test for
machinists was to make a square peg and square hole with nothing more
than a file and a hacksaw. Had to fit within a thou or two to pass.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

I need to fabricate a "patch panel" for a network
distribution point. Most COTS panels are fabricated
in multiples of 12 or 24.

E.g., 1x12, 1x24 (as 12+12), 4x24, etc.

Graphically, something like:

1x12 XXXXXXXXXXXX

1x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX

4x24 XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX

Each 'X' being an 8P8C RJ45S connector.

Typically, these "connector assemblies" are fastened
to the rear of an aluminum plate while the connectors
themselves protrude through holes in that plate
(actually, since the connectors typically abut each other,
the holes are really long *slots*)
[Sorry if all this is obvious -- if you've seen one such
panel, you'd understand what I mean]
In my particular case (1-off), I need to fabricate two
"3x12" panels:





My problem is cutting these long slots in some material
(e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish.
[I suspect these slots are punched in commercial offerings
so they are nice and square, etc.]
You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like
"aluminum with a file" :< I just can't imagine keeping
nice hard, straight edges going that route!

So, I'm exploring other fabrication options. E.g., perhaps
replace the aluminum with lexan? (though I'm not sure that
will be any easier to machine -- "hot knife"?)
[I have a friend with several wire EDM's but can't bring myself
to ask for that big of a favor! :-/ ]
Currently, I figure the easiest solution is to find a couple of
4x24 panels and cut them each in "half" (more like 55/45%]
discarding the undersized "halves".

Is there some other trick I can explore? Anything *strong* that
can be "molded"/poured? (the panels have to support a fair bit
of force as things are plugged/unplugged "carelessly")


--don



Hi, Don:-



Protocase does this sort of thing at a fairly reasonable price-

they'll put markings on too. I think frontpanelexpress.com as well,

but never tried them. They use CNC punching so you get almost smooth

edges (a bit of a burr where the successive punch hits overlap, which

could be smoothed off with a file, but is usually unnecessary).

I've used the European arm frontpanelexpress http://www.schaeffer-ag.de/
it wasn't punched it was cnc milled, absolutely perfect edges, letters
and logo fill-in in color and everything

-Lasse
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Spehro!

Hi, Don:-

Protocase does this sort of thing at a fairly reasonable price-
they'll put markings on too. I think frontpanelexpress.com as well,
but never tried them. They use CNC punching so you get almost smooth
edges (a bit of a burr where the successive punch hits overlap, which
could be smoothed off with a file, but is usually unnecessary).

Ah, so they sort of tackle it like an oversized "nibbler"?
You could also make a relatively crappy panel with a scroll saw and
file (lots of light, magnifier lamp or safety glasses up close, and
clear the chips often), and cover it with a (eg. plastic) bezel that
is thin enough to cut with an Xacto(tm) knife.

Yes. I think this is the right approach. Separate the cosmetic from
the structural/functional.

In my case, I can take a pair of panels and cut each slightly beyond the
halfway point. E.g., given something LIKE:

<http://www.genesistems.com/office/pics/PatchPanel.JPG>

imagine cutting vertically, halfway between the "13" and "14"
markers. So, you end up with as much "panel" extending to the
right of the 12th (and 36th and 60th) connectors as you do to
the left of the *1st* connector. This acts as an "ear" with
which the panel can be mounted to <whatever>.

[You must cut *outside* the "black dots" that mark the locations
of the studs/standoffs/bosses onto which the PCB *behind* the
panel is fastened. And, still leave enough material to provide
a mounting surface]

But, cutting at the 13-14 point leaves you with a real mess!
I.e., the right edge of this new panel now has these big cutouts
into it (for connectors #13, #37, #61, #85).

If, however, you can apply some thin sheet of plastic (0.062")
over the whole thing, it *appears* to be a much finer product.

[The connectors can be coaxed into protruding further through
the panel -- to align with the outer surface of this plastic
overlay -- by trimming down the standoffs on the rear of the
panel]
I assume you're using
something like 3mm hard Al so hand punching or pneumatic nibbling
would be a bear.

Exactly. Trying to "machine" it turns it into a project of its
own! (sort of like making your own spark plugs *before* you
start on that tune-up!)
Oh, and use appropriate file sizes and the type with
no teeth on the sides so as to get sharp corners. A skilled person can
do wonders with a file. ;-) Supposedly one 'hiring' test for
machinists was to make a square peg and square hole with nothing more
than a file and a hacksaw. Had to fit within a thou or two to pass.

I'd rather come up with a solution that lets more folks achieve
"acceptable" results than require people to expend a lot of effort in
something as "unimportant" (?) as a "device to hold connectors". I
think the more you can do to cause "good" results encourages people to
undertake projects that by which they might otherwise be intimidated.
E.g., the "Photoshop overlay" lets folks feel like they've done
something completely unique -- without having to understand some
other (more important!) detail...

This also lets folks adapt the solution to their particular needs
and the materials that they have available to them. E.g., I also
have a bunch of 12-port panels intended for vertical orientation.
Rotate them 90 degrees and slap something on top and no one knows
that the *obscured* legend is now "sideways".

Keep cool! Regards to wife.
--don
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Hi Joerg,

Grant Edwards wrote:

This was under the assumption of occasional use, not industrial 24/7
use. So far Harborfreight stuff has been good to me.

I think HF is "OK" -- if your expectations are "suitably adjusted".
<grin>

A friend has a hammer drill and set of bits from HF that I have used
several times with great success:
- holes in the slab to support new walls
- holes in the wall/fence surrounding the property to support pipes
- holes through the concrete block to get wires in/out of the house

[Actually, as of an hour ago, I appear to have inherited this toy!
Yay! If it was 100 degrees cooler, I might think it was Christmas!!]

Damn thing makes these task almost enjoyable! Really cool to be
able to drill a 1" hole through concrete without breaking a sweat!

OTOH, I certainly wouldn't want to depend on it if that was the
essence of my *livelihood*!

Well, at those prices you could have one or two spares on the truck. But
for serious hammer drilling I've got a Bosch Bulldog. That thing is next
to indestructable.

Likewise, I need a tile/wet saw and a drywall lift. I am leary of
HF as the quality issue *can* have repercussions in each of these
scenarios.

E.g., if you have to "fight" the saw to get it to do the job, you
are more likely to end up with unacceptable results. (tile tends
to be located in highly visible locations!) And, if the drywall
lift opts to *slip* under load, you end up with a broken back!

I bought an $88 wet tile saw from Home Depot, then a professional-grade
"Mad Dog" blade to replace the cheapo blade that came with it (that's
key), and it served me well for almost 1000 sqft of quite complicated
tile laying. We have a Frank Lloyd Wright style house where hardly any
wall is right-angle.

It was hot, and sometimes I'd just let it run, stand in front of it and
let it rain on me. Poor man's evaporative cooling.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
hamilton said:
So the price for one 3x12 panel is $539.99 PLUS the cost of material and
labor.

Cheap at twice the price ! ;-)

No, no, this is the _excuse_ to buy it ... "Honey, I really needed to
have this". Of course you could have easily made the piece by hand if
it's a one-off, but she doesn't have to know :)

[...]
 
G

George Herold

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Lasse,






Actually, while hunting for some images to post, I've encountered

panels that use groups of 4, 6 and 8 as well! So, I guess there's

no hard and fast rule, here (except that the slots will be long

and narrow -- and many of them!)


My problem is cutting these long slots in some material
(e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish.

You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like
"aluminum with a file" :< I just can't imagine keeping
nice hard, straight edges going that route!

Currently, I figure the easiest solution is to find a couple of
4x24 panels and cut them each in "half" (more like 55/45%]
discarding the undersized "halves".

Is there some other trick I can explore? Anything *strong* that
can be "molded"/poured? (the panels have to support a fair bit
of force as things are plugged/unplugged "carelessly")


Find a place that does laser cutting? think there's even some on ebay



I think that will be expensive. I'd like to come up with a solution

that others could replicate -- on a hobbyist/DIYer budget (since I

don't think most folks would be deploying this sort of thing in an

equipment rack (for this application). Nor would they tend to

need as many ports/connectors as are typically available COTS.


if it is mostly slots could you bolt/pop-rivet it together from standard
strips of alu?



<frown> Icky-poo! I don't see how you can end up with something

that didn't look "pieced together"/amateurish.

Hey why not... some standard Al strip. Counter sunk holes
on the ends. Then two end pieces of Al with milled slots and tapped holes.
If it's DYI it can look a bit home brew.

George H.
 
M

Martin Riddle

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've used http://www.schaeffer-ag.de/en for some milled alu front and rear panels they look great and wasn't very expensive,

The design program is very easy to use, calculates and breaks down price
for each operation so it is real easy to tweak it

they even have options for for colored lettering, threading etc.

-Lasse

FrontPanelExpress is (I guess) the USA storefront for Schaeffer-ag
I used them once, THe panels come out real slick, especially the
engraved artwork. If I was the op, this is the route I would take.

Cheers
 
G

George Herold

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Lasse,
On 7/21/2013 3:23 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
I need to fabricate a "patch panel" for a network
distribution point. Most COTS panels are fabricated
in multiples of 12 or 24.
Actually, while hunting for some images to post, I've encountered
panels that use groups of 4, 6 and 8 as well! So, I guess there's
no hard and fast rule, here (except that the slots will be long
and narrow -- and many of them!)
My problem is cutting these long slots in some material
(e.g., aluminum) in a manner that doesn't look amateurish.
You *know* aluminum with a file is going to look like
"aluminum with a file" :< I just can't imagine keeping
nice hard, straight edges going that route!
Currently, I figure the easiest solution is to find a couple of
4x24 panels and cut them each in "half" (more like 55/45%]
discarding the undersized "halves".
Is there some other trick I can explore? Anything *strong* that
can be "molded"/poured? (the panels have to support a fair bit
of force as things are plugged/unplugged "carelessly")
Find a place that does laser cutting? think there's even some on ebay
I think that will be expensive. I'd like to come up with a solution
that others could replicate -- on a hobbyist/DIYer budget (since I
don't think most folks would be deploying this sort of thing in an
equipment rack (for this application). Nor would they tend to
need as many ports/connectors as are typically available COTS.
if it is mostly slots could you bolt/pop-rivet it together from standard
strips of alu?
<frown> Icky-poo! I don't see how you can end up with something
that didn't look "pieced together"/amateurish.



Hey why not... some standard Al strip. Counter sunk holes

on the ends. Then two end pieces of Al with milled slots and tapped holes.

If it's DYI it can look a bit home brew.
Oops, DIY... DYI driving yourself intoxicated... think I'll have another beer and go to bed.

George H.
 
D

Don Y

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi George,

Hey why not... some standard Al strip. Counter sunk holes
on the ends. Then two end pieces of Al with milled slots and tapped holes.
If it's DYI it can look a bit home brew.

I think people get more excited/satisfaction when they invest
time/money in a project and it looks *good*/professional when
they are done. They seem more likely to want to "show it off"
if they don't have to also "apologize" for it.

And, the easier it is for them to get those good results, (lower
the bar) the more likely they are to undertake new "adventures".
Consider how few people work on their own cars, woodworking,
home maintenance, etc. "Encouragement" seems a good motivator.

<shrug> YMMV,
--don
 
Top