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cooling PV-panels with garden sprinklers usefull?

J

jan siepelstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a 15 kWp PV system on my roof.
The panels tend to get quite hot in full sun.
Because of the reduced output from high temp. panels, I thougt it might be
usefull to put garden sprinklers on my roof, to distribute water over the
panels.
I have free water available from a small stream in the back of our house.
So it would cost met just the energy for a pump.
Offcourse the energy gain should be more than the pump energy.
Has anyone in this group ever experimented with something like this?
And if yes, what were the results?

regards,
Jan (from Holland)
 
J

jan siepelstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Ross said:
How do you plan on preventing or removing the mineral deposits that may
result from the water evaporation? Granted, well water would probably be
much worse than using water from your stream, but you may have to deal
with "hard water" spots over time which may cancel out the increase due to
the cooling effect.

Phil
I plan to use (much) more water than is evaporating.
In that way, the concentration of dissolved salts will increase (in the
water that is coming from the roof back down), but there will be no
deposits.

Jan.
 
B

Bob Noble

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just a word of caution.
If you get water on a hot panel things can go crack, so best to start any
water before things get hot.
 
J

jan siepelstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ken Maltby said:
jan siepelstad said:
I have a 15 kWp PV system on my roof.
The panels tend to get quite hot in full sun.
Because of the reduced output from high temp. panels, I thougt it might
be usefull to put garden sprinklers on my roof, to distribute water over
the panels.
I have free water available from a small stream in the back of our house.
So it would cost met just the energy for a pump.
Offcourse the energy gain should be more than the pump energy.
Has anyone in this group ever experimented with something like this?
And if yes, what were the results?

regards,
Jan (from Holland)

Can't really help, but I've always wondered if there
would be a noticeable improvement in performance or
longevity, if you were to watercool the chips. It could
perhaps also provide hot water or at least preheat the
water supplying a water heater.

I've watercooled computer components for a number
of years now, and while I can't see how you would
"overclock" a PV chip, to increase its performance;
providing them a means to shed heat could add some
to their MTBF.

Assuming that your home's water supply has sufficient
pressure to reach the watercooled PV panels, you might
not need a pump, at all.

If the PV panels were made so that there is a thermal
path from the chips through the aluminum backing of
the panel, it could be as simple as plumbing a shallow
pan to the back of each panel. You could seal them
together with epoxy putty. (You would use some metal
clips as well, to ensure it could stand the water pressure.)
[ You would put a pressure limiting valve/device on that
supply line, but why take chances?]

You would have to plumb it so you could drain it for
any time when a hard freeze is likely. ( It might not be as
often or for as long as you may think.) You could add
temp. sensors and automatic control for this, but that would
add to the cost. (You could probably use inexpensive low
voltage sprinkler valves for the vent and drain, so there
would be no need to go up on the roof.)

Or..., your sprinklers under the PV panels could do the
cooling job, and you current gutters carry the water away.
Just seal up the panels really well. You well probably need
a pretty strong pump to feed sprinklers on your roof, though.
Plus whatever head there may be from your "small stream",
to the pump. You would add a "T" and a drain valve on the
sprinkler side of the pump, to avoid burst sprinkler lines during
a hard freeze.

Luck;
Ken
Sorry Ken,

My panels don't have aluminium at the back, but just a sheet of adhesive(?)
plastic foil on the back of the cells / glass. I know plastic is not the
right name, but don't remember the exact stuff.

Also it doesnt seem like a good idea to wetten the panels on the back side.
They are designed to get wet from the front side (rain), but I'm not sure
about the watertightness from the back at the long run.

Besides that, I don't want to remove all the panels because it's quite a job
for my 124 panels (Kyocera KC125).

Jan
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
I wouldn't bet on that.

Graham

Me either.

I would like to suggest using a misting hose instead of a sprinkler. You
would use way less water and could use a very small pump, perhaps even a
mini-fountain pump such as they sell at Harbor Fright.. I think their
smallest one uses only about 7 or 8 watts (but I'm not sure).You could
probably still have the flow rate high enough to create runoff. You will
p;robably need to carefully direct the runoff (rain gutter?) to prevent
mineral deposits on whatever structure the panels are on.

Maybe some paste wax or Rain-X on the panels might reduce the mineral
deposits. My guess is that you are going to be using a lot of Lime Away.
You might want to make sure you don't coat the panels with anything that
will cut down the UV.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
BobG said:
It should be easy to measure.... hook up a voltmeter and ammeter
(wouldnt it be great id they were rs232 out and you could record the
data?) and get some readings in the sun, then turn on the water. Go
back and calc power out in ea case and see if it goes up. If it goes
up by more than the size pump you need, you are 'in the black'.

Aside from the cost of purchasing and installing the extra kit of course
!

I'm always intruiged that PV s
olar supporters ignore capital costs when
assessing comparative results. It's probably the only way they can even
remotely break even (in their minds).

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
jan said:
I plan to use (much) more water than is evaporating.
In that way, the concentration of dissolved salts will increase (in the
water that is coming from the roof back down), but there will be no
deposits.

I wouldn't bet on that.

Graham
 
J

jan siepelstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a 15 kWp PV system on my roof.
The panels tend to get quite hot in full sun.
Because of the reduced output from high temp. panels, I thougt it might be
usefull to put garden sprinklers on my roof, to distribute water over the
panels.
I have free water available from a small stream in the back of our house.
So it would cost met just the energy for a pump.
Offcourse the energy gain should be more than the pump energy.
Has anyone in this group ever experimented with something like this?
And if yes, what were the results?

regards,
Jan (from Holland)


Are the PV panels currently attached any kind of heat sink?

No. How should they be?
Jan.
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
Lord Gow333 said:
I'd look into a ram pump. In all honesty I can't tell you how they work
(anybody else?), but they use the flowing water of the stream for their
power so there's no operating cost. I don't think they put out much volume,
but for this you wouldn't need it anyway.

You would need at least 4 or 5 feet of head for the RAM pump to work. I
made a 1" pump that had about 7 feet of head and about 25 feet of feed pipe
and it pumped about 1/2 pint per minute to a height of about 60 feet. This
went into a storage tank (55 gal plastic drum). Considering how little
power a small fountain pump uses, and it will be needed only when the sun is
shining, I'd lean in that direction. I think it cost me about $50 to make
the RAM pump. A small fountain pump from Harbor Freight is only around $7.
 
P

PhattyMo

Jan 1, 1970
0
jan said:
I have a 15 kWp PV system on my roof.
The panels tend to get quite hot in full sun.
Because of the reduced output from high temp. panels, I thougt it might be
usefull to put garden sprinklers on my roof, to distribute water over the
panels.
I have free water available from a small stream in the back of our house.
So it would cost met just the energy for a pump.
Offcourse the energy gain should be more than the pump energy.
Has anyone in this group ever experimented with something like this?
And if yes, what were the results?

regards,
Jan (from Holland)


I've got a small 10W panel,and I've sprayed it with the hose several
times. On the hottest,brightest summer days,I've seen the power go up
6-8x(!) for a short period,until the panel heats back up. (I saw ~13W
once,from this 10W rated panel! I rarely even see 10W from it,even with
the water-cooling.)
Usually it will go up atleast 2x though.
It's pretty nice to see the output at ~3W,and then spray the panel,and
watch it shoot up to 8-10W,and slowly fall back down.
 
V

Vaughn Simon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kitep said:
He did say he doesn't see the rated output.

In my limited experience, rated output comes only in full sun, with a
perfectly clean & fresh panel, oriented directly at the sun, operating in some
specified temperature range, into the correct load...and probably not even then.

Vaughn
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
Lord Gow333 said:
Fair enough. I'll let Jan do the math on which is better. Will the fountain
pump develop enough pressure to reach a rooftop?

I guess that *is* rather iffy. We don't know how far away the creek is, or
how high the roof is, or if the pump needs to be directly in the creek, or,
for that matter, why the main source of water for the house can't be used.
If OP has a hill then a RAM pump might work if there is enough head and flow
rate and a small storage tank can be used. I had a 55 gallon drum that fed
four misting nozzles and it would run all day and there would still be quite
a bit of water left over. But I just reread jan's posts and we are talking
about an awful lot of panels. The misting hoses and nozzles alone could get
pretty expensive.

It looks like all this means I have to go and connect a fountain pump to a
misting hose and report back ;-)
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ulysses said:
I guess that *is* rather iffy. We don't know how far away the creek is, or
how high the roof is, or if the pump needs to be directly in the creek, or,
for that matter, why the main source of water for the house can't be used.
If OP has a hill then a RAM pump might work if there is enough head and flow
rate and a small storage tank can be used. I had a 55 gallon drum that fed
four misting nozzles and it would run all day and there would still be quite
a bit of water left over. But I just reread jan's posts and we are talking
about an awful lot of panels. The misting hoses and nozzles alone could get
pretty expensive.

It looks like all this means I have to go and connect a fountain pump to a
misting hose and report back ;-)

Well, forget the mini fountain pump. It did not work very well. I'm sure
it used to have more power but after many months of using it for an
evaporative cooler it doensn't have much umph left.

Considering how many panels Jan has and the flow rate needed for sprinklers
something like a 12 volt pump would have to be pretty big and use quite a
bit of power. Also considering that the average high temperature for August
in Amsterdam is only 71 F I wonder why cooling is even needed.

 
J

jan siepelstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ulysses said:
Ulysses said:
message


I guess that *is* rather iffy. We don't know how far away the creek is, or
how high the roof is, or if the pump needs to be directly in the creek, or,
for that matter, why the main source of water for the house can't be
used.
If OP has a hill then a RAM pump might work if there is enough head and flow
rate and a small storage tank can be used. I had a 55 gallon drum that fed
four misting nozzles and it would run all day and there would still be quite
a bit of water left over. But I just reread jan's posts and we are talking
about an awful lot of panels. The misting hoses and nozzles alone could get
pretty expensive.

It looks like all this means I have to go and connect a fountain pump to
a
misting hose and report back ;-)

Well, forget the mini fountain pump. It did not work very well. I'm sure
it used to have more power but after many months of using it for an
evaporative cooler it doensn't have much umph left.

Considering how many panels Jan has and the flow rate needed for
sprinklers
something like a 12 volt pump would have to be pretty big and use quite a
bit of power. Also considering that the average high temperature for
August
in Amsterdam is only 71 F I wonder why cooling is even needed.

Well, although the average high temp may not be that high in our country, I
would have expected it to be a little higher. But I didn't studie it.

However it's not the average airtemp. that's important, but the temp. of the
panels (or actually, the cells).
And I didn't measure it, but my guess is that they can be 30°C (54F) above
the ambient temp.

If I could cool them down to let's say the ambient temp. (with the use of
water as described), that would bring a gain of about 30 * 0.5% in power.
For my 15.5 kWp, let's say the real life max. power is 13 kW. So the gain
would be 30*0.5*13,000=1950 Watt. This seems worthwile to me.

So far, there were a lot of advises from many people. Thank you all.
But to be honest, I hoped to find someone who really did this cooling thing
himselves and could share his results with us.

Jan
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
jan siepelstad said:
However it's not the average airtemp. that's important, but the temp. of the
panels (or actually, the cells).
And I didn't measure it, but my guess is that they can be 30°C (54F) above
the ambient temp.

If I could cool them down to let's say the ambient temp. (with the use of
water as described), that would bring a gain of about 30 * 0.5% in power.
For my 15.5 kWp, let's say the real life max. power is 13 kW. So the gain
would be 30*0.5*13,000=1950 Watt. This seems worthwile to me.

So far, there were a lot of advises from many people. Thank you all.
But to be honest, I hoped to find someone who really did this cooling thing
himselves and could share his results with us.

Jan

This happens to me faily often. I search and Google and find little or
nothing about whatever I'm looking for. I think part of the problem is
that many people will ask a question, and as in your case get no response
based upon actual specific experience, and go on to figure it out
themselves. Then the results are not posted so others can share that
experience. For example I recently searched for information regarding using
a wind turbine to drive an air compressor. All I found was responses saying
it would not work but nobody really said why. Well, being the kind of guy I
am I had to try it for myself. It didn't work, and I'm not sure why. I
would have thought that simply getting the compressor head to turn would
result in a cumulation of small amounts of compressed air but it would not
build up. I'm guessing the compressor needs to turn at a certain speed in
order to work. Once I figure it out I will post my results even if they are
negative. Someone else might read it someday and get it to work. Just
because something is impossible doesn't mean it can't be done ;-)

The RAM pump idea sounds like a possiblity for you but we don't know enough
about your creek or terrain. If you have 4-5 gallons per minute from your
creek you could use a 1" pump. If you have more than that then perhaps a
larger pump might work. But the RAM pump wont develop much pressure so the
water would need to be pumped into an elevated tank and use gravity for the
water pressure. You also need a certain amount of "head" for the RAM pump to
work but we don't know if you live on flat or hilly land.
 
I recently searched for information regarding using
a wind turbine to drive an air compressor. All I found was responses saying
it would not work but nobody really said why. Well, being the kind of guy I
am I had to try it for myself. It didn't work, and I'm not sure why. I
would have thought that simply getting the compressor head to turn would
result in a cumulation of small amounts of compressed air but it would not
build up. I'm guessing the compressor needs to turn at a certain speed in
order to work.

There are several threads discussing it that I can remember. Here's
one
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/7d6d86bfe7763971.
There's nothing inherently difficult about matching compressors to
wind power. In fact, wind-driven, compressed-air water pumping is
popular in some areas. Bowjon compressors for example appeared to be
standard parallel twins, just like the third photo down on this page
http://www.cisolar.com/CatWindPump.htmlinked. Not that I think it's a
good idea, unless you can scrounge up and modify an Aeromotor or
similar. Even then, considering time, labor, and storage needs, most
will find electric compressors more practical.

Wayne
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon John said:
Time to change the subject line, I think.


One of the keys to google is thinking outside the box. Try to imagine what
terms OTHER than the ones you use might be used by the author of what you're
searching for. And try to think of related areas. The following will be a
good example and will address your air compressor dilemma.

Part of my problem is figuring out what to call something. Just this
morning I discovered that a steam powered generator that get it's heat from
the sun is called a "solar furnace." I think I found some 30-year-old plans
on www.motherearthnews.com but it takes five minutes for a page to load and
then the pictures sometimes don't show up so it may be days or weeks before
I even determine just what they did and how it works. Sounds like a
possible solution for me anyway.
As you've found out, conventional air compressors aren't very well suited to
low speed operation. There's the cogging problem, the periodic resistance on
the compression stroke that at high speed is overcome by flywheel inertia.
Then there's the blowby problem. As you know, you can slowly turn either an
engine or an air compressor through its compression stroke and accomplish
nothing. All the air leaks past the piston and rings. Again, both machines
rely on speed to cause the compression to happen fast enough that the blowby
has little effect. Plus, most piston rings require a certain amount of
backing pressure to properly seat.

All you need for low speed compression is a suitable design. One that doesn't
rely on inertia or conventional piston rings.

Recently I became interested in big bore air rifles. Think .50 caliber with
enough energy to kill big game. Like this, for instance

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

The gun is pre-pressurized to from 2500 to 4500 psi. Most folks use diving
tanks but believe it or not, there is actually a hand pump available that can
generate that kind of pressure.

http://www.airgundepot.com/hand-pump-samyang.html

Of course, in the fine print for one of the rifles, it notes that from 1500 to
2000 strokes are required for the first pressurization. Yikes! Holy
exhaustion, Batman!

Not being interested in building my triceps or wearing myself out and not
being terribly interested in having to travel 50 miles to the nearest dive
shop to beg 'em to fill a tank for a non-certified non-diver, I naturally
started looking for alternatives. I momentarily considered building a slow
speed crankshaft affair that would drive that manual pump with a motor. Having
some doubts about its durability when used like that, I decided to look
further.

There are, of course, commercially made high pressure air compressors but
they're big $$$$. One of the air gun e-stores sells a ChiCom made unit for
$1995 or thereabouts, far too rich for my blood.

So I went googling. I didn't find anything related to air guns. I knew that
both divers and emergency responders also use high pressure air. Divers are
more likely to homebrew something than are firemen so I included diving terms
in my search. There I hit paydirt. Consider this homemade low speed
shop-air-drive oxygen compressor.

http://www.brianb.org/images/Scuba/Homemade/Gas Booster/gas_booster.htm

From practically zero pressure to 3400 psi in one stage! Pretty zippy. I
would have done several things differently. I would not use the lever arm but
instead would find the correct diameter air cylinder to generate the necessary
force directly. That way the two cylinders are directly coupled and there is
no bending moment. I'll probably also go with more than one stage. And since
I happen to have an electro-hydraulic power pack, I'll probably use a
hydraulic cylinder instead of air.

Anyway, here's a design of a pump that can be directly driven from an
old-fashioned farmer's wind mill. You can drive it directly from the
reciprocating motion that these windmills deliver to the ground. Actually,
the air cylinder that he used to drive his pump would probably be more
suitable. You'd want the inlet and outlet check valves to be as close to the
cylinder as possible to minimize dead space.

So how long will it take you to get one running? :)

Right after I finish everything else. ;-) And it had better be soon.

Actually I was thinking more in terms of about 110 psi. I'll take a look at
that web site after I do this reply thing. No doubt I'll be back asking all
kinds of questions about it. All I'm hoping to get is maybe 10-15 cu/ft of
air at about 110 psi per day. That would fulfil my need most of the time.
I just need to use a couple of staple guns and a fastener machine for a
little while each day. And fill tires once-in-a-while.

I had thought of using an old scuba tank for a steam tank mainly because I
know they will withstand at least 3000 psi. I never bought a scuba
compressor because of the price. Besides that I used to enjoy swapping fish
stories with the guys at the dive shop. If I told a good enough story they
didn't charge me for the air ;-) Right now, with electricity at over
$4/gallon, a hanp pump is looking good.
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
There are several threads discussing it that I can remember. Here's
one
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/7d6d86bfe7763971.
There's nothing inherently difficult about matching compressors to
wind power. In fact, wind-driven, compressed-air water pumping is
popular in some areas. Bowjon compressors for example appeared to be
standard parallel twins, just like the third photo down on this page
http://www.cisolar.com/CatWindPump.htmlinked. Not that I think it's a
good idea, unless you can scrounge up and modify an Aeromotor or
similar. Even then, considering time, labor, and storage needs, most
will find electric compressors more practical.

Wayne

I remember reading fairly recently about using compressed air to generate
electricity and the many pitfalls of doing that. How the air was being
compressed seems to have escaped me. I must have a leak in my brain.

The way things are going right now my "extra" compressor head might end up
being a steam engine (if I can figure that one out). Now to find out what
an "Aeormotor" is....
 
U

Ulysses

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neon John said:
I haven't followed this very closely but I DO have lots of water ram
experience. Our previous cabin had one that ran literally for 50 years with
little more attention than occasionally replacing the leather valve. It
pumped water about 100 ft vertically and about 500 feet in distance from the
tiny creek that we got our drinking water from.

I'd be afraid to guesstimate the creek's flow but probably in the 10-50 gpm
range. The key to making a ram work is to have one SMALL enough to work with
the water available. Ours had perhaps a 4 ft drop which was more than enough.
The water emitted from the pipe at our cabin with gusto.

The one I made was from PVC and it was only 1" and I had it going directly
into a storage tank and I never tested the pressure but it sure didn't seem
like much. So, you think one of those old cast iron pumps would run some
sprinklers?
There are plans on the net for making a ram using PVC pipe. They look like
they would work. And, of course, the original design cast iron rams are still
available.

I followed some plans that included an inner tube in the upper cylinder
(where the water pressure compresses some air, I think) and left out the
inner tube because I couldn't see what it was for. It worked fine without
the inner tube. The dump valve does not seem to be very critical--I made
one from a PVC tee fitting and an end cap with a few holes drilled in it
with a stainless screw in the middle with a seal on the inside and a small
weight on the outside. It worked on the first try. From what I read the
biggest mistake some people made was using a flexible pipe to feed the pump.
I used SCH 40 PVC and it was rigid enough. To me it's amazing that someone
thought of it in the first place. But, I guess if electric motors haven't
been invented yet...
 
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