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Contactor coil: 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz

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DaveC

Jan 1, 1970
0
I may be able to obtain a very small 2-pole 240 vac contactor I need rated
for 50 Hz only.

If I install it in N. America, what's the implication? Is the hold-in
magnetism less than if it were 60 Hz? Just noisy?

Please don't ask or suggest other sources. This is a very specific device and
I've not been able to locate other than this.

Thanks,
Dave
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
DaveC said:
I may be able to obtain a very small 2-pole 240 vac contactor I need rated
for 50 Hz only.

If I install it in N. America, what's the implication? Is the hold-in
magnetism less than if it were 60 Hz? Just noisy?

Please don't ask or suggest other sources. This is a very specific device
and I've not been able to locate other than this.
Plug one into 60 Hz and find out what happens. It will probably work just
fine. The Mfr only rated it for 50 because they weren't expecting
international sales.

Are you allowed to tell us why it has to be such a narrow menu of choices?

Thanks,
Rich
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

Jan 1, 1970
0
I may be able to obtain a very small 2-pole 240 vac contactor I need rated
for 50 Hz only.

If I install it in N. America, what's the implication? Is the hold-in
magnetism less than if it were 60 Hz? Just noisy?

Yes, the hold-in force will be proportionally less. If the
coil impedance was due entirely to the inductance, it would
be 50/60ths of the force. However, part of the current limiting
is done by the coil resistance, and that won't change so the
reduction in hold-in force will actually be less than this.

The pull-in force before the magnetic core is closed also
depend on the impedance and resistance, but the impedance
will be lower, and thus the pull-in force will be reduced by
even less.

The pull-in force usually has to overcome a faily weak return
spring. The hold-in force has to overcome a stronger contact
pressure spring. Providing both these conditions are still met,
you should be OK. Ideally, you should check that you have a
reasonable working margin by testing the coil at lower
voltage. If you don't, then the contactor might fail to
close properly on minimum supply conditions which could cause
it to burn out.

I would not expect it to be more noisy if it closes properly.
Noise would be an indication that is isn't closing properly.

Of course, you void all waranties and certifications by
operating it outside of it's specified ratings. The
manufacturers advice should be sought, but unless you are
buying lots of them, they probably won't commit other than
to say it's at your own risk.
 
P

petrus bitbyter

Jan 1, 1970
0
DaveC said:
I may be able to obtain a very small 2-pole 240 vac contactor I need rated
for 50 Hz only.

If I install it in N. America, what's the implication? Is the hold-in
magnetism less than if it were 60 Hz? Just noisy?

Please don't ask or suggest other sources. This is a very specific device
and
I've not been able to locate other than this.

Thanks,
Dave

As we have very limited information about this device and its usage, I can
only suggest two possible solutions:
- The easy one: Just try it out.
- Build a piece of electronics that converts your 60Hz to 50Hz.
Dimensions of that electronics depend on the required current.

petrsu bitbyter
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:58:55 +0000 (UTC), the renowned
Yes, the hold-in force will be proportionally less. If the
coil impedance was due entirely to the inductance, it would
be 50/60ths of the force. However, part of the current limiting
is done by the coil resistance, and that won't change so the
reduction in hold-in force will actually be less than this.

The pull-in force before the magnetic core is closed also
depend on the impedance and resistance, but the impedance
will be lower, and thus the pull-in force will be reduced by
even less.

The pull-in force usually has to overcome a faily weak return
spring. The hold-in force has to overcome a stronger contact
pressure spring. Providing both these conditions are still met,
you should be OK. Ideally, you should check that you have a
reasonable working margin by testing the coil at lower
voltage. If you don't, then the contactor might fail to
close properly on minimum supply conditions which could cause
it to burn out.

<snip>

A side effect of reduced holding force can be that it is more
sensitive to opening due to external vibration in the wrong axis (and
especially so when the input voltage is on the low side). That could
cause malfunction of whatever it's connected to and premature failure
of the contactor. This might not be so easy to test without a shaker
table etc., but it should be considered if the operating conditions
involve vibration (including vibration from another nearby contactor).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
IME relays pull in at in the region of half rated voltage, and dc
ratings are typically about half the voltage of the ac rating, which
gives an idea of how much current is determined by L and how much by
R. Running your relay on 220v 60Hz it will work fine. Contact closing
speed will be slightly slower. Margin will be reduced, but its only
being reduced from enormous to slightly less enormous, so its a non-
issue except in very unusual situations.

Well, high ambient temperature and low input voltage. May not be that
unusual. I've seen it happen more than once, particularly in
industrial situations where ambient temperatures can be relatively
high.

I even had to wire an autotransformer into a domestic elevator control
panel because the designer ignored the necessity of allowing for
voltage drop when the drive motor started, which caused chattering of
the AC contactor even in a climate-controlled 22°C environment.
The vibration tolerance of
the contacts will be little affected in practice; if your environment
is harsh enough to shake the relay contact open, then you've got
bigger worries than contacts crackling.

Since the OP didn't describe the environment.. it may or may not be.
For aircraft work (yes, some is 60Hz) it would be a really good idea
to check. If it's sitting on a subpanel with the control cabinet
bolted to the floor rather than to an OBI punch press, not a big deal.
If instead you meant you would use it on 110v 60Hz, then dont. But you
could use diodes to get a higher dc voltage and use that.


NT


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
D

David Lesher

Jan 1, 1970
0
DaveC said:
I may be able to obtain a very small 2-pole 240 vac contactor I need rated
for 50 Hz only.
If I install it in N. America, what's the implication? Is the hold-in
magnetism less than if it were 60 Hz? Just noisy?

It will be happy. If it were a 60Hz on 50, it would not be as happy.
 
D

David Lesher

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have an old P&B MR5A here with a 240V 50/60Hz coil.
The coil has a resistance of 4800 ohms, and an open inductance of 14.5
henrys, so it has an impedance of 6616 ohms at 50 Hz, and 7270 ohms at
60 Hz.

What's the inductance while closed?
 
D

DaveC

Jan 1, 1970
0
If instead you meant you would use it on 110v 60Hz, then dont. But you
could use diodes to get a higher dc voltage and use that.
NT

No, there are models for both 115 and 230 in both 50 and 60 Hz flavors. Here
in N. America these are difficult to get so I may have to settle for the 50
Hz models, ordered from Europe. Hence my query.

Thanks,
Dave
 
D

DaveC

Jan 1, 1970
0
..
Since the OP didn't describe the environment.. it may or may not be.
For aircraft work (yes, some is 60Hz) it would be a really good idea
to check. If it's sitting on a subpanel with the control cabinet
bolted to the floor rather than to an OBI punch press, not a big deal.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

It's usually in old (60's & 70's) V-belt driven letterpress type printing
presses (think "clamshell" press). No vibration at the controls.

Thanks,
Dave
 
D

DaveC

Jan 1, 1970
0
It will be happy. If it were a 60Hz on 50, it would not be as happy.
[David Lesher]

Interesting. Good to know. It's stuff like this I learn here that I wouldn't
otherwise know.

Cheers,
Dave
 
P

petrus bitbyter

Jan 1, 1970
0
"NT" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
---
Well, that's true, so let's just see how far off I was, by using a
real-world example.

I have an old P&B MR5A here with a 240V 50/60Hz coil.

The coil has a resistance of 4800 ohms, and an open inductance of 14.5
henrys, so it has an impedance of 6616 ohms at 50 Hz, and 7270 ohms at
60 Hz.

7270 - 6616 = 1.1, so my error was 1 part in 11, or a little less than
10%

I can live with that.
---





Well, your tone is certainly insulting, while the solution remains
valid, but since the voltage into the coil will only be 11% low, the
transformer secondary will only have to supply 26V instead of 48.

In reality, 24V will be fine.
|
| The relay has a voltage margin of around 50%, the mains supply wont
| vary more than 10%, so the transformer is of no use.
|
|
|NT
|

"The relay has a voltage margin of around 50%" How do you know? FAIK the op
did not supply this numbers.

petrus bitbyter
 
D

David Lesher

Jan 1, 1970
0
DaveC said:
It will be happy. If it were a 60Hz on 50, it would not be as happy.
[David Lesher]
Interesting. Good to know. It's stuff like this I learn here that I wouldn't
otherwise know.

Well anytime you run transformers {Be they two fixed windings,
or one fixed and one rotating aka motor, or one fixed &
one sliding aka solenoid or relay....} on LESS than design
frequency, worry. Lower frequencies need more iron.

I'm not sure the slightly less pull-in power will be relevent but
it's possible.

If you do pursue the "make DC and use that..." approach; don't forget
you need to limit the holdin current. One technique is a cap in parallel
with a resistor.
 
J

Jeffrey Angus

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well anytime you run transformers {Be they two fixed windings,
or one fixed and one rotating aka motor, or one fixed&
one sliding aka solenoid or relay....} on LESS than design
frequency, worry. Lower frequencies need more iron.

Hasn't anybody read the original question?

He wants to know if a 50 Hz relay coil will work at 60 Hz.

Jeff
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeffrey said:
Hasn't anybody read the original question?
Yeah. It was answered some days ago.

Guess you gotta be quick. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
What's the inductance while closed?

16 henries, but that measurement was made by closing the armature
manually.

If there's any real interest I can measure it energized.
[/QUOTE]
Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by "real interest" - I'd be
interested in seeing your experimental results, but that's just because
I like seeing experimental results. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

John S

Jan 1, 1970
0
YES A-NT-MAN BUT THE RMS REFERS TO THE AC WAVEFORM NOT THE DC OUTPUT.
HENCE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS RMS DC VOLTAGE.
PATECUM
TGITM

Actually, RMS DC voltage is a redundant expression since DC is RMS.
 
J

Jeffrey Angus

Jan 1, 1970
0
I realised it was perhaps not the best phrasing. But... would the dc
component be the average V or the rms?

DC would be the RMS value. Because, RMS means "This is what the DC
value would be."

Jeff
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Root Mean Square does not imply an ac waveform, its jsut most commonly
used for ac waveforms. Every stable waveform has an rms value, even
perfect dc.



I realised it was perhaps not the best phrasing. But... would the dc
component be the average V or the rms?


NT

Generally, in electronics, "DC component" is defined as the average
value (say, over a period of a periodic waveform). So a 1V peak sine
wave sitting on top of 1VDC would have DC component of 1.0V.
A 1V peak sine wave has a DC component of 0.

The RMS value is the heating value- a 1 ohm resistor with 1VDC across
it will dissipate 1W. A 1 ohm resistor with 1.414V peak sine wave
across it (1 V RMS) will dissipate 1W.

A 1 ohm resistor powered with a 1V peak sine wave sitting on top of
1VDC will dissipate a bit more than 1 watt (RMS value is sqrt(3/2) if
you want to get analytical about it, so about 1.22W).
 
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