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Constitutionality of light bulb ban questioned - Environmental Protection Agency must be called for

Discussion in 'Electrical Engineering' started by dpb, Jun 20, 2008.

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  1. dpb

    dpb Guest

    The bill did _not_ "ban" incandescent bulbs, it set minimum efficiency
    standards.

    I'm not taking a position, but if it isn't constitutional, neither are
    CAFE standards for automobiles or most any other regulations regarding
    performance levels of any product (say drug effectiveness, for another
    example).

    --
     
  2. James Sweet

    James Sweet Guest



    Both the ban and the reasons cited here for questioning the ban are the
    silly result of politicians with poor understanding of the issues
    involved. The amount of mercury in a CFL is tiny, burning coal to
    generate electricity also releases mercury, few light bulbs of any sort
    are US made, and for some applications, incandescent still has advantages.

    I was searching for a light fixture the other day and discovered that
    *every* flush mount at both hardware stores I tried are now fluorescent.
    Naturally they're all super cheaply made, and the ballasts do not
    support dimming. I was irked and left the store without purchasing
    anything. The ironic thing is that I've long been using almost entirely
    compact fluorescents in my house for years and enjoying the substantial
    energy savings, however I use the screw-in retrofit type which is
    readily available in a dimming version, various wattages and color
    temperatures, and the ballast, which in my experience fails as often as
    the tube, is replaced each time with the tube. I don't need legislation
    to get me to use more efficient products, it makes economic sense to do
    so, but if someone wants to pay a fortune to run something inefficient,
    let them.
     
  3. dpb

    dpb Guest

    James Sweet wrote:
    ....
    Again, there is _not_ a "ban"...

    --
     
  4. First of all, Congress did not "ban" incandescent lamps -- they simply
    set minimum efficiency standards, as they have with other consumer
    products such as air conditioners and refrigerators. Secondly,
    lighting manufacturers already sell high efficiency incandescent lamps
    that meet these new standards. You can buy these ones at Home Depot:

    http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/consumer/hes/display.php?mode=1

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  5. metspitzer

    metspitzer Guest

    WASHINGTON – Members of Congress are beginning to have second thoughts
    about the ban on incandescent light bulbs effective in 2014 as a
    result of an energy bill signed into law earlier this year.

    Rep. Ted Poe, R-Texas, says his objection is very basic – the
    Constitution doesn't authorize Congress to do anything remotely like
    banning a product that has been used safely and efficiently for more
    than 100 years in favor of Chinese-imported compact fluorescent light
    bulbs that pose considerable health and safety risks.

    Poe cited the dangers associated with CFLs, which carry small amounts
    of mercury that can enter the environment through breakage and
    disposal. He also objected to reliance on the CFL alternatives when,
    currently, all are made in China.

    "Congress passed an energy bill that should be called the
    anti-American non-energy bill because it punishes Americans for using
    energy when it should be finding new sources of available energy," Poe
    stated.

    (Story continues below)

    http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67573
     
  6. Hi Jim,

    A 70-watt soft-white Philips Halogená Energy Saver has a 3,000 hour
    rated service life and produces 1,600 lumens (22.8 lumens per watt).
    A Philips Duramax soft-white A19 incandescent has a rated service life
    of 1,500 hours and provides 1,550 lumens (15.5 lumens per watt). Watt
    for watt, a 70-watt Halogená ES generates 1.5 times more light.

    Sources:
    http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/halogen/pdf/p-5901.pdf
    http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/incan/pdf/p-8493.pdf

    Anything else we can clear-up for you?

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  7. James Sweet

    James Sweet Guest


    That came to mind, but I didn't see the lumen output quoted on the page.
    What is it compared to a standard incandescent? The one incandescent
    fixture in my house has older Halogena lamps in it, the efficiency of
    those is exactly the same, but the life is longer, I've never had one
    burn out.
     
  8. Re: Constitutionality of light bulb ban questioned - Environmental
    Protection Agency must be called for a broken bulb

    Roy says [{ I wasn't aware of this ban }
    i do know that Mercury,Sodium, Metal Halide bulbs must be dispossed of
    in a specific way]continues below=>

    Group: alt.engineering.electrical Date: Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 3:09pm
    (EDT+1) From: (Paul M. Eldridge)
    33:54 -0300, Paul M. Eldridge
    First of all, Congress did not "ban" incandescent lamps -- they simply
    set minimum efficiency standards, as they have with other consumer
    products such as air conditioners and refrigerators. Secondly, lighting
    manufacturers already sell high efficiency incandescent lamps that meet
    these new standards. You can buy these ones at Home Depot:
    http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/consumer/hes/display.php?mode=1
    Cheers,
    Paul
    Of course... 70W IS less than 100W. Read the fine print on lumens
    output. Sheeeesh!
                                                                                    ...Jim
    Thompson
    Hi Jim,
    A 70-watt soft-white Philips Halogená Energy Saver has a 3,000 hour
    rated service life and produces 1,600 lumens (22.8 lumens per watt). A
    Philips Duramax soft-white A19 incandescent has a rated service life of
    1,500 hours and provides 1,550 lumens (15.5 lumens per watt). Watt for
    watt, a 70-watt Halogená ES generates 1.5 times more light.
    Sources:
    http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/halogen/pdf/p-5901.pdf
    http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/incan/pdf/p-8493.pdf
    Anything else we can clear-up for you?
    Cheers,
    Paul
    ===============>
    The way I see it.,Though advancements in The Lighting Industry are
    appreciated for several reasons - Consumers have the right & will seek
    out & purchase the regular edison type incandecent bulbs.
    They are easy to install & use.......

    Note That: Halogen as well as Quartz bulbs (and such others) operate at
    much higher temperatures and are not suitable for all locations., as in
    the case of the Average Family Residence with growing children, et al
    non electrically savy indivuduals.................
    Reported Fires have decreased dramatically with Consumer Education, but
    remain emminent where they are in use & prone to accidental falls.

    TT®
     
  9. RFI-EMI-GUY

    RFI-EMI-GUY Guest

    Here in Florida, the governor Charlie Crist has crammed Gasahol (10%
    Ethanol) onto consumers without any rational discussion or consideration
    of consumers.

    Notwithstanding the arguments that ethanol production uses fat more
    petroleum than it saves. The glaring issue is that the gasahol mix
    actually reduces fuel efficiency significantly in many if not most
    vehicles. For example, my vehicle averages 15 MPG with regular unleaded
    (I will not apologize for not driving a Prius) but now with gasahol it
    now averages 12.5 MPg. This means that when driving a trip of 150 miles
    I have to purchase an additional 2 gallons of fuel.

    So:
    1) I was ripped off at the pump paying full price for an adulturated
    product. 3.96 gallon X 10 gallons X 10% = $3.96 stolen
    2) I was ripped off a second time at the pump needing to buy 2 more
    gallons of same adulturated product. 3.96 X 2 = $7.92 stolen
    3) My vehicle still burned 10 gallons of regular gasoline out the
    tailpipe into the air. Plus it burned an additional 1.2 gallons of
    ethanol out the tailpipe into the air.

    So I am ripped off $11.88 for what should have been 1/2 tank full. And
    the earth is further polluted.

    Please someone tell me where all this makes any sense? I think this
    benefits only Archer Daniel Midland and Big Oil.

    --
    Joe Leikhim K4SAT
    "The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

    "Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
    For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

    "Follow The Money" ;-P
     
  10. RFI-EMI-GUY

    RFI-EMI-GUY Guest

    Here in Florida, the governor Charlie Crist has crammed Gasohol (10%
    Ethanol) onto consumers without any rational discussion or consideration
    of consumers.

    Notwithstanding the arguments that ethanol production uses far more
    petroleum than it saves. The glaring issue is that the gasohol mix
    actually reduces fuel efficiency significantly in many if not most
    vehicles. For example, my vehicle averages 15 MPG with regular unleaded
    (I will not apologize for not driving a Prius) but now with gasohol it
    now averages 12.5 MPG. This means that when driving a trip of 150 miles
    I have to purchase an additional 2 gallons of fuel.

    So:
    1) I was ripped off at the pump paying full price for an adulterated
    product. 3.96 gallon X 10 gallons X 10% = $3.96 stolen
    2) I was ripped off a second time at the pump needing to buy 2 more
    gallons of same adulterated product. 3.96 X 2 = $7.92 stolen
    3) My vehicle still burned 10.8 gallons of regular gasoline out the
    tailpipe into the air. Plus it burned an additional 1.2 gallons of
    ethanol out the tailpipe into the air.

    So I am ripped off $11.88 for less than 1/2 tank full. And the earth is
    further polluted.

    Please someone tell me where all this makes any sense? I think this
    benefits only Archer Daniel Midland and Big Oil.

    --
    Joe Leikhim K4SAT
    "The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

    "Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
    For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

    "Follow The Money" ;-P
     
  11. Well, he did say "incandescents should have limited use in today's
    world", which pretty much covers what you've described; the great
    majority of light bulbs are used for domestic, commercial or industrial
    lighting, where CFLs are appropriate. The few exceptions where
    incandescents can't be replaced or where it's impractical to do so are
    small potatoes by comparison.
     
  12. krw

    krw Guest

    ....and where is the sanctioned in the Constitution?
    Sounds good to me.
     
  13. krw

    krw Guest

    Strawman. Not all electricity comes from not need come from coal.
    Exactly the point.
     
  14. James Sweet

    James Sweet Guest

    Well in all fairness...

    Yes, plenty of enclosed CFLs work outside in the winter. If you live in
    an area of extreme cold, there's always HID. A 39W metal halide lamp
    produces much more light than a 150W incandescent, and lasts 6-10 times
    as long. I use exclusively CFLs in all my outdoor fixtures, it only gets
    down to about 15F at the lowest here, so the plain exposed spiral type
    work fine. Since these are on from dusk till dawn, the savings are
    substantial and I get 2+ years out of a bulb. Even the vilified mercury
    vapor lamp so common in yard lights and street lighting of the past is
    more than twice as efficient as incandescent.

    Yes, I do, but what's wrong with LEDs? They're perfect for flashlights.
    You can pick up a 3W white LED Maglight for $22 at Home Depot, they've
    really come down in price, work better, and the batteries last longer. I
    do have a fluorescent flashlight, it uses a small cold cathode tube, as
    well as I have a camping lantern with a conventional 9W CFL tube in it
    powered by 4 D batteries.

    Not very many anymore. LEDs and HID are making rapid headway into
    automotive applications as prices drop and technology improves. I'd bet
    that within a decade there will be virtually no incandescent lamps
    anywhere in new cars. No more taking out a zillion screws and clips to
    dig into the dash and replace lamps, no more burned out taillights, or
    melted lenses from someone installing the wrong bulbs. There's no delay
    as the lamp filaments heat either, so response of the brake lights is
    quicker, not by much, but at 70 mph every millisecond is valuable.
     
  15. James Sweet

    James Sweet Guest


    They're probably those crappy 34W energy saver tubes with magnetic
    ballasts that usually don't drive them harder than about 25W. Those were
    a hack from the 70s energy crisis and hardly work in a drafty room
    indoors. Try some electronic ballasts driving T8 tubes, they work fine
    in the near freezing temperatures in my unheated garage in the dead of
    winter. As an added bonus they're 32W and brighter than most of the old
    40W tubes and the high frequency operation pretty well eliminates
    strobing with rotating machinery.
     
  16. Nate Nagel

    Nate Nagel Guest

    Can someone please explain what T8, T12, etc. are and what are the
    differences? I have plenty of old T12 40W tubes, fixtures, ballasts,
    etc. I've had several people recommend updating the ballasts and tubes
    but are the keystones the same? Length of tubes?

    nate
     
  17. James Sweet

    James Sweet Guest



    T = Tubular

    The number is the diameter in 8ths of inches. Another number in the full
    designation is usually the nominal wattage, but sometimes the length in
    inches.

    Examples:
    F40T12/CW Fluorescent, 40 Watts, 1.5" diameter, Cool White
    halophosphate phosphor

    F32T8/850 Fluorescent, 32 Watts, 1" diameter, 80+ CRI 5000K
    trichromatic phosphor

    F96T12/D/HO Fluorescent, 96" length, 1.5" diameter, Daylight
    halophosphate phosphor, High Output (800mA)

    and a really rare bird...
    F48PG17/D Fluorescent, 48" length, 2-1/8" diameter Power Groove
    dimpled tube, Daylight halophosphate phosphor, VHO (1500mA)



    T8 and T12 use the same sockets and have the same lengths. High Output
    (HO) and Very High Output (VHO) are also available, those use RDC rather
    than bipin end caps and are slightly shorter to accommodate the larger
    sockets. Fixture lengths are the same for all those.

    Not all ballasts are created equally. The wattage stamped on the tube is
    the nominal rating. The actual power is determined by the ballast, which
    is a constant-current source. The low energy retrofit tubes such as the
    34W T12 accomplish this by changing the gas fill to have a lower voltage
    drop, so with the same current, the wattage is lower.
     
  18. That some incandescents available at Home Depot already meet.

    Also, only certain incandescents are affected - there are many exceptions
    (colored, flood, spot, appliance, decorative, ones of brightness of "usual
    25 watt ones and dimmer, ones brighter than the brighter 150 watt 750 hour
    ones, other exceptions).

    - Don Klipstein ()
     
  19. Plenty of A19 lightbulbs 40-100 watts are USA-made. So are plenty of
    4-foot fluorescents.

    - Don Klipstein ()
     
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