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Connecting Existing Smoke Detectors

J

Jeff Stevens

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am building a new house, and the builder installs a smoke detector
in every room. These are the kind that when one goes off, they all go
off. I assume this is a simple loop, that when one trips, it breaks
(or completes) the circuit, and triggers all of them. With that said.
The builder also provides a Brinks security system. When I talked to
Brinks, they said that they won't connect to the existing smoke
detectors and that they have to install their own. He admited that he
didn't know whether or not it would work, but he said they can't. So,
would that work, or are theirs different (interface wise)? If the
existing ones would work, would that be something that I could connect
fairly easily after the system is installed?

Thanks,
Jeff Stevens
 
M

Murphy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Make sure the smokes Brinks will be providing will not be in violation
of building code. I replaced the 110V smokes in my apartment with
system smokes - one smoke hardwired, the rest wireless. Because I live
in an apartment, every year a fire equipment inspector tests all fire
detection equipment in the building. Last inspection he noted that all
smokes should be 110V, and therefore my system smokes were in violation
of building code. (System smokes are 12V DC hardwired and battery
operated for wireless). I was never penalized but it was listed as a
deficiency on the report. If I had kept the existing 110V smokes and
used this device:

http://www.cepcoproducts.com/A22.html

there wouldn't have been a problem with the inspection.

Brinks won't monitor your smokes but they will monitor this device which
monitors your smokes.
 
B

Blythe Noe

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L. Bass said:
The Brinks guy is right. There is no code compliant way to connect 110 VAC
smoke detectors to an alarm system. There is a device which you could use
to do so but (1) it's illegal and unreliable; (2) Brinks will probably
refuse to monitor it.

Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

Mr. Bass is correct on both of the above, but to take the thread just
a little bit more, please be aware that no homeowner should do
anything to modify the smoke system that is installed, inspected and
passed by the local building inspector, and your certificate of
occupancy is based on the inspector's findings. To change or modify
your smoke detectors would not only infringe on the certificate of
occupancy, but if you did have a fire, it is possible that your
insurance company could give you a very hard time, particularly if
there were injuries to you or you family. This is serious business,
and best left alone. Let the Brinks or another company do there
thing. If you then have a problem, you are in the clear.
 
A

Allan Waghalter

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can leave the builder installed smoke detectors in place to meet your
code requirements and add as many monitored smoke detectors as you want to
have a monitored smoke system also. Bear in mind, the builder smokes won't
activate the alarm system, but if you place your system smokes correctly,
you should have the benefit of both!
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Blythe Noe said:
The Brinks guy is right. There is no code compliant way to connect 110 VAC
smoke detectors to an alarm system. There is a device which you could use
to do so but (1) it's illegal and unreliable; (2) Brinks will probably
refuse to monitor it.

Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm

Regards,
Robert

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

Mr. Bass is correct on both of the above, but to take the thread just
a little bit more, please be aware that no homeowner should do
anything to modify the smoke system that is installed, inspected and
passed by the local building inspector, and your certificate of
occupancy is based on the inspector's findings. To change or modify
your smoke detectors would not only infringe on the certificate of
occupancy, but if you did have a fire, it is possible that your
insurance company could give you a very hard time, particularly if
there were injuries to you or you family. This is serious business,
and best left alone. Let the Brinks or another company do there
thing. If you then have a problem, you are in the clear.[/QUOTE]

In the Lower Mainland (BC) many jurisdictions *will* allow you to upgrade the
110VAC smoke alarms to system smoke alarms as long as the original wiring is
left in place in the event you sell the house and take the system with you.
This having been said, check with *your* local AHJ. If the system smoke alarms
are being *professionally installed* and are fully supervised you're actually
providing a system that's far superior to what your builder installed (and most
AHJ's will recognize this).

In response to the OP's original query, there is *nothing* in any code that
would restrict him from connecting his AC smoke alarms to an input zone on his
*residential burg panel* as long as any relay that was proposed is UL listed for
the purpose (such as the one shown here
http://www.icca.invensys.com/manuals/firex/110-278F.pdf). This having been
said, I would not recommend doing so and I must admit I was quite impressed with
the professional response the OP said was given by the Brinks guys.
 
J

Jeff Stevens

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thank you all very much for the responses. Yes, the system is
standard equipment with the house. I guess I'll buy some smokes from
Brinks. I just hate cluttering up the ceiling with more smoke
detectors. Oh, well.

Jeff Stevens
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Stevens said:
Thank you all very much for the responses. Yes, the system is
standard equipment with the house. I guess I'll buy some smokes from
Brinks. I just hate cluttering up the ceiling with more smoke
detectors. Oh, well.

Jeff Stevens

It does look ugly, but you'll sleep much better!! :))
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L. Bass said:
That is absolutely untrue, friend. The referenced device is NOT UL-listed
for connection to a fire alarm system. You should NEVER use it to connect
110VAC smokes to an alarm control panel.


Ummm... show me where a residential alarm control panel (in this case a Brinks
panel) is listed under UL 864 "Standard for Control Units for Fire-Protective
Signalling Systems"... Then show me where it specifically prohibits the
connection of a 110VAC smoke alarm to a residential (non-UL 864 listed) alarm
control panel... I think you're confusing "not recommended for use" with some
sort of "standard" or "code" using "fuzzy logic" you've picked up from your
participation in "alt.plushies"... :))
 
I

Interested

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L. Bass said:
That is absolutely untrue, friend. The referenced device is NOT UL-listed
for connection to a fire alarm system. You should NEVER use it to connect
110VAC smokes to an alarm control panel.
<snip>

Robert -

Not that I would encourage using resicrap smokes to an alarm system -
duct taping things together like that seems fraught with issues even
if everything is listed, but...

Accroding to the info I found, it is UL Listed, and more importantly
to me, it's CSFM Listed (7300-1628:100,
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/pdf/fireengineering/bml/1600/1628-100.pdf).
The CSFM listing indicates:

"Installation: In accordance with listee's printed installation
instructions, applicable codes and ordinances and in a manner
acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction."

The installation instructions clearly indicate using it for the
interconnection of smokes/connecting smokes to an alarm system. It
appears that you need another module for the alarm system side and
that it functions using a PLC concept -- not necessarially something
I'd personally trust for life safety, but my state's Office of the
State Fire Marshall has aparently found that it is sutable for the
purpose indicated.

The UL listing is nebulous and does not specifically indicated that UL
has or has not approved the product for its proffered use:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073994256&sequence=1


--Again, this is not something I would personally want to do nor
encourage, but it appears to be approved for that task.

Interested.
 
M

Michael B. Baker

Jan 1, 1970
0
.... and NFPA 72 permits connecting single-station smoke alarms to lots of
things, including residential burglar alarm control panels:

NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7 Installations that include the connection of single-
or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices, such as but
not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices, phone dialers,
security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull stations, shall be
permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of the wiring leading to
these input or output devices does not prevent normal operation of the
single- or multiple-station alarm.

Mike

--
Michael B. Baker, SET
Michael Baker & Associates, Inc.
Fire Alarm System Design and Plan Review
PO Box 737
Gladstone, OR 97027-0737
503-657-8888 v
503-655-1014 f
ET News(sm) http://www.etnews.org
 
A

Aegis

Jan 1, 1970
0
AlarmReview said:
Michael, this comes up very often under various scenarios.
The common denominator is this:
House is built with the standard smoke detectors interconnected running off the
house ac current.
The question is:
Can those average smoke detectors built into the house be connected to an alarm
panel for fire detection? If so, under what specific circumstances?

It's been argues yes they can! No they can't! They can if you use a relay!
You can't if that relay isn't UL listed for that purpose! You can with a UL
relay! You can't with a non UL listed smoke for alarms! You can because I know
an AHJ that said it's O.K.! You can't because I know 2 AHJ's that said no!
You can because NFPA says yes! You can't because NFPA says no! Yes, No, Yes,
NO!
We're not talking some specialized installation, just the common house with AC
smokes and a typical intrusion alarm where they just want supplemental fire
detection. Can the house smokes be added to the system?

Rob-

The AHJ has final authority. You know an AHJ that said ok? Then you can do
it in his territory... You know 2 that said no? Then you can't in THEIR
territory. If they share a territory, you RFI their head honcho... Wouldn't
be the first time we RFI'd to the Chief.
 
M

Michael B. Baker

Jan 1, 1970
0
AlarmReview said:
Michael, this comes up very often under various scenarios.
The common denominator is this:
House is built with the standard smoke detectors interconnected running off the
house ac current.
The question is:
Can those average smoke detectors built into the house be connected to an alarm
panel for fire detection? If so, under what specific circumstances?

It's been argues yes they can! No they can't! They can if you use a relay!
You can't if that relay isn't UL listed for that purpose! You can with a UL
relay! You can't with a non UL listed smoke for alarms! You can because I know
an AHJ that said it's O.K.! You can't because I know 2 AHJ's that said no!
You can because NFPA says yes! You can't because NFPA says no! Yes, No, Yes,
NO!
We're not talking some specialized installation, just the common house with AC
smokes and a typical intrusion alarm where they just want supplemental fire

Can the house smokes be added to the system?
Rob-

Yes.
 
A

Aegis

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hey... been meaning to ask you... What year/version of NFPA are your books
based on? Is there a new version every 3 years?
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L. Bass said:
The key words in the listing are as follows:

<snip>

The "key words" are *name chapter and verse*, Robert... Where does it say you
can't do it? Your "saying" it can't be done doesn't qualify as "code"...
 
M

Michael B. Baker

Jan 1, 1970
0
They're based upon the 1999 version of NFPA 70 and 72. I'll update them when
NICET begins testing from the 2002 versions, rumored to be early 2005.
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert L. Bass said:
The problem is you have to use only devices which are listed for use with an
alarm control panel.

That's total and absolute BBS. Show me the applicable code where it states I
can't use a non-listed device with a residential alarm control panel.
The device in question is not.

You're confusing "intended use" with "listed use". An automotive door switch is
"not intended" for use with an alarm panel, but you could make it work with one
(and there's no "code" that would prohibit you from doing so). Is it a good
idea?? Of course not!! A residential burg panel is "not intended" for use in a
motor yacht. Do you have any idea how many are being utilized in this fashion??

Furthermore, even if
you were to find a listed device for the purpose you would still have to get
it by the AHJ.

Why?? If the customer wants to hook up his 110VAC smoke alarm to an auto dialer
(or monitored residential burg panel), what business is it of theirs?? As long
as he doesn't attach something that will prevent the single station alarm from
functioning as intended, there's *nothing* in any code that says he can't do it.
Most will not accept any kind of unsupervised IDC on a fire
alarm system.

There you go again with the "fire alarm system" bit... Where did the OP state
he was having a *fire alarm system* installed?? It's a residential burg alarm
with a fire detection component...
Since these devices are invariably incapable of supervising
the initiating devices most inspectors will disallow them anyway.

Horse twaddle!!
No matter how you slice it, the best approach is to use all supervised,
system smokes.

No one disagrees with you there, Robert...
 
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